Imbalanceable abilities and tactics: The Death Star Tractor Beam

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[VERTIGGO]

Don't take this the wrong way, as an Axis player it may seem that I'm just biased, but I think I have a legitimate point.

I believe Relic went a little overboard on certain abilities in the pursuit of interesting battles and we are blindly accepting it as part of the game when it is technically broken. I'm sure many will disagree but I would much rather fight tactically than rely on specials to ruin the enemy's vet.

Examples:

Treadbreaker
Button
Faust's critical table
PIATs/sticky's ability to fire through anything when StuH's can't
Tank shock (in it's current form, where every inf in radius goes red instantly)
Slow
Stun

I know some of these require skill to implement so are not just "I win buttons" but some of them are. Traditionally, every unit has a certain counter and when you see a certain unit attacking, you maneuver to get your counter in play with the enemy. However, in these cases, there is little to nothing you can do about it. Normally if you see a lot of heavy tanks, you deploy AT's in key locations, or if you see a blob you set up MGs (unless they're AB or ranger), but in most of these cases, you can lose some serious units by "accident" because you can't use retreat or do anything at all to counter the ability. That spells not imbalanced, but "imbalanceable" in my book. I believe they are by definition a broken aspect of the game.

I know everyone uses them but they make for extreme frustration, and I don't believe they are good for the game. Of course I personally hate button from Kangaroos and Stun, because they ensure that I never can retreat my tanks, but every ability has it's level of issues.

It's not that they are all bad abilities, but in their current state of effectiveness, they often allow players to purchase the deaths of enemy units without really the chance of being countered. The price varies greatly, but often it's ridiculously cheap. E.G. 40 mun for tank shock often causes the inevitable deaths of 1000s of manpower and mun worth of infantry, and there's no excuse like "they shouldn't have been standing there" because the magic button says "LIE DOWN!"

*dons NOMEX*

[Jazlizard]

Some of the abilities you listed are a bit hard to balance as their power level scales dramatically based on skill level, both of the person using them, and the person you use them against.

Take button for example, on it's own it doesn't do that much, it slows down your tank and makes it (well most of them anyways) not able to defend itself very well. It takes another unit (an AT unit) to really do damage to the target. At it's best you could probably take out any tank in the game with a couple units with button and the right amount of AT, at it's worst you button a tank for .5 seconds and it backs away.

Some folks would argue that you should always balance for the highest potential of a weapon. I tend to take a more middle of the road approach with it myself, while still leaning towards the elite play level.

Bottom line is, you can't price button (or any other ability) like every time it's used it will take out a panther, or a tiger. Same with stickies, against a great player, you might not ever get to throw one.

Ease of use is another factor to consider, you mentioned fausts which are for the most part click, aim, fire. Easy to use, hit almost all the time, but have a long cooldown and for the most part, just do damage, much simpler item to balance out.

Anyways, the point is, they aren't unable to be balanced, but they require more thought and understanding of abilities and weapons available on a larger scale then some other abilities.

I do agree with the premise that the more abilities/units you have the harder it is to balance everything, but that doesn't make it impossible, just makes it harder, but I, for one, prefer more variation than less.

[VERTIGGO]

Very good points! Again, I'm not fighting for removal of any of these abilities totally, as I think they are interesting (some more than others) and in the right way add depth to the game. Stickies are very legitimate, since they don't always throw if you micro carefully, and don't entirely disable the vehicle. Overall, good balance. Slow I think is similar, since it is one infantry squad, which is not as game breaking as a heavy tank or whatnot, and it doesn't kill the infantry outright. Treadbreaker often fails to work, though I haven't seen it much. However, some abilities are just far to inescapable, to be fair. Tank shock is bugged, I understand, and can and will (I believe) be fixed. However, button and stun are continuing issues. When I had precision strike, I would pay for a second one just as some insurance against bren squads, since without dropping an off-map, it's almost certain death for any tank. However, the instant it's buttoned, it not only stops and quits firing, it is completely blind, so often I couldn't even waste an off-map just to scare away the tommy squad. That's a bit one sided, and add a Kangaroo with PIATs as well, and you have a circle strafing tractor beam of death that cannot be countered with anything. There's simply no time to kill the Kangaroo even if you have PaKs in range before the PIATs finish off the tank.

Bottom line is this. EIRR was meant to revolve around victory by taking the field, and whoever is losing retreats before they lose everything. It makes sense that when your infantry is half destroyed, you retreat, and civil players don't set up traps for them or chase down vet all the way to spawn. However, losing a tank with full health and no engine damage because someone happened to have a tractor beam handy is not even sportsmanlike. I would much rather have to deal with incredible allied AT (oh wait, I do) and run away if I get the worst of an engagement than remain constantly nervous waiting for that Kangaroo ambush or T17 rush is going to totally annihilate my vet tanks without warning or chance to run away. I shouldn't have to shadow my Panther with PaKs just to keep it from certain death.

[mapleleafsnation]

The tractor beam of death is one of my favorite weapon as British and it dies fairly quickly, unless the enemy tank is unsupported. Tanks that get buttoned can be rescued by infantry.

I do agree that tank shock is really powerful, just run your churchill in the middle of the enemy blob and BOOM everyone rolls on the ground. Then send in the tractor beam of death and everyone's running away.

I personally hate button from Kangaroos

You can button WITH (or from inside) the kangoroo?

[spinn72]

PIATs/sticky's ability to fire through anything when StuH's can't

If a Stuh could, then an AVRE would too.  Would you want that???  lol.

btw most of these abilities are critical to the team.  Basic Whermact tactics say you shouldnt get close to riflemen you think have stickies or Brens.

[VERTIGGO]

The tractor beam of death is one of my favorite weapon as British and it dies fairly quickly, unless the enemy tank is unsupported. Tanks that get buttoned can be rescued by infantry.

I do agree that tank shock is really powerful, just run your churchill in the middle of the enemy blob and BOOM everyone rolls on the ground. Then send in the tractor beam of death and everyone's running away.

I personally hate button from Kangaroos

You can button WITH (or from inside) the kangoroo?

Yes, the Kangaroo can circle strafe a tank, while buttoning, and holds multiple squads, so it can button while moving and firing PIATs. Since a P4 dies in 2-3 volleys from PIATS, you can't get 6 shots off on the Kangaroo even with supporting PaKs or tanks before it's dead.

[VERTIGGO]

PIATs/sticky's ability to fire through anything when StuH's can't

If a Stuh could, then an AVRE would too.  Would you want that???  lol.

btw most of these abilities are critical to the team.  Basic Whermact tactics say you shouldnt get close to riflemen you think have stickies or Brens.

One way or the other, you can't say one unit is allowed to fire over things and another isn't. Personally, I don't think anything should have one-way mirror capabilities. The churchill has no problem because it simply drives through hedge and its so strong it has no problem with frontal assaults. The StuH is so weak and slow it's worthless in hedges because it has to creep around the corners to get any shots off, while the PIATs are magically soaring through any blockage. The PIAT has the same buff that stickies have (albeit need), in that they fire through anything. It's supposedly because they are ballistic, but it's nonsense because it doesn't matter how big or high the obstacle is. The StuH supposedly has ballistics as well, but somehow magically hits anything in front of it, even small hedges that it should be able to fire over.

[Mysthalin]

The kangaroo will die to a single pak + shrek long before it will kill the tank it's buttoning. And the casualty rate on a dead kangaroo is simply HUGE. Anything that didn't get out before the boom go out with the boom :S.

[Two]

The kangaroo will die to a single pak + shrek long before it will kill the tank it's buttoning. And the casualty rate on a dead kangaroo is simply HUGE. Anything that didn't get out before the boom go out with the boom :S.

Even if they get out they have to do it when the kangaroo can still take 2 hits. When i ran my tiger company everyone would hop out when all it took was 1 shot to kill, id hit the roo, ko it and the splash would insta kill the units that jumped out.

[lionel23]

PIATs/sticky's ability to fire through anything when StuH's can't

If a Stuh could, then an AVRE would too.  Would you want that???  lol.

btw most of these abilities are critical to the team.  Basic Whermact tactics say you shouldnt get close to riflemen you think have stickies or Brens.

One way or the other, you can't say one unit is allowed to fire over things and another isn't. Personally, I don't think anything should have one-way mirror capabilities. The churchill has no problem because it simply drives through hedge and its so strong it has no problem with frontal assaults. The StuH is so weak and slow it's worthless in hedges because it has to creep around the corners to get any shots off, while the PIATs are magically soaring through any blockage. The PIAT has the same buff that stickies have (albeit need), in that they fire through anything. It's supposedly because they are ballistic, but it's nonsense because it doesn't matter how big or high the obstacle is. The StuH supposedly has ballistics as well, but somehow magically hits anything in front of it, even small hedges that it should be able to fire over.

Well, do remember originally the StuH wasn't ballistic but had a cannon like the 88 and tended to miss because of the direct fire.  The StuH was always weird with how it was the only tank to 'lob' shells from such short range, heh.

[Malevolence]

Well, do remember originally the StuH wasn't ballistic but had a cannon like the 88 and tended to miss because of the direct fire.  The StuH was always weird with how it was the only tank to 'lob' shells from such short range, heh.

It hit a LOT more often and was borderline overpowered because it shot a p4 shell with a 105 charge in it.

[Unkn0wn]

Well, do remember originally the StuH wasn't ballistic but had a cannon like the 88 and tended to miss because of the direct fire.  The StuH was always weird with how it was the only tank to 'lob' shells from such short range, heh.

It hit a LOT more often and was borderline overpowered because it shot a p4 shell with a 105 charge in it.

Good times indeed.

[Mysthalin]

Yeah, good days.

Back then I couldn't even tell the difference between it and the normal StuG, so I used it as such, thinking it was just a no-fuel version .

[Pak88mm]

pretty much sums up alot of the balance issues with current VCoH. Their balance team is just not a balance team at all. Those abilities are just for noobs and lend themselves to be abuse hardcore by good players. so instead of adding a level playing field they make it far worse.

[Freek]

Heh, it would be an interesting game without ANY abilities.. and maybe even NO upgrades.  (Though, allied AT would need a general buff vs axis heavy tanks).

[pernik]

mmm i'd like to see a game without offmaps, and those replaced with onmap pieces

oops, a lil thread derail

[VERTIGGO]

Maybe but a lot of those offmaps have the tractor beam syndrome as well. I mean sector is just devastating, and strafe hits with no smoke, heck there's an allied strike that lands super fast has at least 9 arty rounds and is so accurate it's killed a panther and p4 in one strike, even thought they tried to back out...

[pernik]

that's why I'd like to see a game without it

[VERTIGGO]

actually I'm not sure what you mean..

[pernik]

I mean that EiRR w/o or with the very least offmaps would be great (and instead of offmaps I'd like to see on-map pieces such as Priest or Hummel) nvm