50mm ATHT

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[fallensoldier7]

The 50mm AT HT is the reason that I have pretty much ditched my sherman company.  As armor, pretty much the only way to take care of a 50mm and clown car w/ shreks or a 50mm and a marder is to use an AT gun.  You could go in with light armor (and somehow win) but you'll definitely lose a lot in the process.  Also, unless I have 2 ATGs, there's a high chance that it can be sniped by the marder (resulting in me either losing my ATG or having to back off with it).  As a sherman armor player, once I lose all of my ATGs, it's pretty much game over since there isn't much else I can do to give my shermans a better chance at racking up some kills.

Perhaps with the new availability system I can get more ATGs and compensate for my lack of handheld AT, but I'm not sure if I want to go through the high blood pressure experiences of fielding shermans vs 50mm HT/marder/clowncar combos.

[jackmccrack]

Just get in close and circle strafe. 

[Jazzhead]

Please don't take away my vet3 50 mm  Just because some people run 5 50mms, doesn't mean they need to be eliminated altogether. Instead just 1) lower their availability to 3 or something, or 2) decrease their accuracy vs ATGs. If you change the availability it punishes ppl who try to spam them, but if you increase the cost you punish everyone who uses even 1.

[pqumsieh]

Im going to go with AmPm on this one, the biggest problem with this unit is the fact that it only cost 4 pop; but has enough AT capability to take on most light and medium tanks. Increasing its pop is the first step to balancing it out.

Second, as many others have mentioned, this unit needs to have its turning speed reduced. You cannot ciricle strafe it atm; making even well planned out armor rushes futile. Do not tell me that flanking with armor is not an approperiate tactic; because when its done you are usually pushing in an ATG and MG or infantry. How many times do you see paks get flanked by armor? I do it all the time, its my 2nd counter to them (morter = first).

Reduced its turning speed, increase pop to 6. I think that should solve most of the problems. As far as availability goes, i'll leave suggestions in that regard to others.

PQ

[Smokaz]

Double nerfs usually go overboard, its the relic nerfing style. Lets avoid it in EIRR.

[Tymathee]

Current Rotation = 50
Marder = 24

one thing i notice looking up the stats is that the LATHT (the chassis that the 50mm is on) has a low decel like 3, which i'm guessing makes it hard to reverse move, i've never seen someone try and reverse move the sucker.

I use the 50mm a lot as pe and i would have to agree, its really good. I've taken out 4 or 5 tanks with just one (more finishing them off than straight kill) and now with the new availability pool, you need to raise the pop. ATM i think its what 4? moving it to 5 or 6 i think is good and then. Rotation try it at 45 atm

Maybe lower the speed or accel, i mean it is the 37mm atht with a bigger gun, it shoud slow it down at least a litttle right?

[Unkn0wn]

one thing i notice looking up the stats is that the LATHT (the chassis that the 50mm is on) has a low decel like 3, which i'm guessing makes it hard to reverse move, i've never seen someone try and reverse move the sucker.

You should try microing a HT into moving backwards properly

[LuAn]

Its funny on what short term memory, fast paced interest due to recent ingame experiences, most of the forums is based:
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=11250.msg192342#msg192342
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=11250.msg192342#msg192342

@ Tym:
the 50mm currently is at 3, same as marder, whereas any other atgun is at 2.

And the problem with it being overused is that it doesnt share the same category with the marder, not its low point cost.

As ive said many times by now, the PE categorization needs some massive tweaking

[RikiRude]

There is no reason why something that is doing the same job as something else, but much better should be the same pop cap as it.

This unit being 4 pop just as all other ATGs is doesn't make sense when it does their job better. This would be like making the quad 3 pop since it's pretty much used as a mobile MG.

Take a look at the mortar HT, its 6 pop and I think we can all agree that it does a bit more then it's counterparts so it balances it out.

[Mysthalin]

I would indeed agree on a popcap nerf to 5/6, but it's rotation speed should remain unchanged.

It's almost impossible to back away with it, let alone kite something, as it's pathing is god awful - nerfing the rotation speed would only add to it's terrible pathing.

Also, the wind-up time is terribly long(even resulting in a rather huge animation to sound issue), so it can NOT fight anything that circle strafes it. Think M10 wind-up bug, just occuring every single time it shoots anything at medium range, rather than at random points in battle.

[LuAn]

There is no reason why something that is doing the same job as something else, but much better should be the same pop cap as it.

This unit being 4 pop just as all other ATGs is doesn't make sense when it does their job better. This would be like making the quad 3 pop since it's pretty much used as a mobile MG.

Take a look at the mortar HT, its 6 pop and I think we can all agree that it does a bit more then it's counterparts so it balances it out.

What about the downsides/disadvantages? Even if the better performance comes at a cost of disadvantages you want to ignore those disadvantages and base the change solely on a units performance compared to other units?

Example: Why is the Cromwell 12 Pop and the Hellcat/m10 10 Pop? The Hellcat/M10 is far better at taking out tanks than the cromwell so they should be higher pop according to your logic.
or take the American t17 8 Pop and British Staghound 8 Pop as an example.
And if you want to balance the pop of a unit based on its performance, why are they price differnently then? E.g. Allied Mortar, Axis Mortar?

What does the MTHT more than its counterparts? I cannot agree because i have no idea what you mean?
If you mean its better, shouldnt the Mortar Commandos then be at higher pop than the 2inch mortar?

Btw:
Marder 6 Pop

P.s.: Im sorry for the aggresive tone, but alone the idea of such balancing behaviour makes me ....

[RikiRude]

No, you have some very valid points, so no offense taken in the tone.

Let's look at this. What are the disadvantages of the 50mm HT? You can say it's low armor correct? It takes what, 2 57 shots to kill? Well how many shots does it take to kill a 57 or a pak? about 2-3 shots correct? But look at the speed and rotation of the 50mm, that more then makes it much better then a 57 or pak. Sure it doesn't have AP rounds or camo, but it can chase down enemy tanks and finish them off, same can't be said for the other two guns. It has more and better advantages then normal ATGs, though it cost some fuel. But I think it's not the cost of the vehicle that makes it so good it's its low pop cap. you can field 3 of these while someone can only field 1 hellcat.

Also cromwell and hellcat/m10 play quite different roles.

and the mortar HT has very deadly flame rounds, can't be counter mortared, and maneuverability which make it far better then any other mortar as long as you have hedges/buildings to get behind.

Also marder has a lockdown function, which increases its site, so I think it's 6 pop is fine, because if I want to field a jeep with my 57 it's going to cost me 7 pop.

Either way I don't think balancing should only be done through pop cap, but for this unit I think it's probably going to be the most effective way to balance it.

[LuAn]

Very well spoken! 

I also agree on upping the 50mm pop to 5

[EliteGren]

I agree, or it could be made 6-8 pop but with small arms resistant armour.

[Malevolence]

I agree, or it could be made 6-8 pop but with small arms resistant armour.

I disagree with the small arms resistant armor at 6-8 pop. That would reduce the marder to being completely worthless and redundant as it would fill the exact same role, except it would be larger and more ponderous, thus harder to use.

[EliteGren]

Well the way I see it, the Marder has more of a defensive role with locking down and keeping an eye on an area while the 50mm plays the offensive tank-chase machine.

[Jazzhead]

It takes what, 2 57 shots to kill? Well how many shots does it take to kill a 57 or a pak? about 2-3 shots correct?

When do you see ATGs die to consecutive hits? It IS easier to pak snipe, but still ATG vs ATG is nowhere like ATG vs 50 mm accuracy. The 50mm will always get hit by ATGs.

IMHO i choose 50mm over marder because marder gets circled so easily and suffers from some of the worst AI and pathing. 

[Mysthalin]

Disadvantages of 50mm to standard PAK :
1. Lower ROF.
2. Higher Wind-Up time.
3. Easier to hit due to it being a halftrack.
4. No Cloak.
5. Lower range.
6. Lower Sight range.
7. Repairable only once - paks can be recrewed multiple times.
8. Higher cost.

Just a few disadvantages I can list.

[Malevolence]

Disadvantages of 50mm to standard PAK :
1. Lower ROF.
2. Higher Wind-Up time.
3. Easier to hit due to it being a halftrack.
4. No Cloak.
5. Lower range.
6. Lower Sight range.
7. Repairable only once - paks can be recrewed multiple times.
8. Higher cost.

Just a few disadvantages I can list.

Advantages:

1. Can shoot on the move
2. Lower setup time
3. Harder to evade/avoid/catch due to it being a halftrack
4. More speed
5. Shoots more often against mobile targets
6. Lower pop (is it still 3? Or was it changed?)
7. Doesn't need to be recrewed at all
8. Not positive about this one, but it takes something other than support pool I think...


List goes on...

[Mysthalin]

1. With 25 percent moving accuracy, IIRC.
2. I agree.
3. Agreed.
4. Duh?
5. Not really...
6. It's 4 pop.
7. It can't be recrewed. That's a definite disadvantage.
8. Takes support pool.