50mm ATHT

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[Illegal_Carrot]

I can't make any judgments based on the new pool/availability system (as I haven't got to use/fight it much), but in 006 it seemed a bit too good. A slight range reduction/RoF increase was all that was needed, but the things were definitely better than Marders in a large majority of cases, no contest.

[Malevolence]

1. With 25 percent moving accuracy, IIRC.
2. I agree.
3. Agreed.
4. Duh?
5. Not really...
6. It's 4 pop.
7. It can't be recrewed. That's a definite disadvantage.
8. Takes support pool.

No, Mysthalin, being unable to be decrewed in the first place is a HUGE advantage. You can still kill it with small arms, but nowhere nearly as easily as an AT gun crew. Whatever can own an AT halftrack can own an AT gun and blow it up, but whatever can own an AT gun cannot necessarily own an AT halftrack.

25% moving accuracy is better than "cannot shoot while moving".


Also, "Duh?"? Really? Like everything you just listed isn't "duh?" worthy?

By 5 I mean that it can't be circled nearly as easily as a PaK or AT gun, so it shoots more often against moving targets.

[Jazzhead]

I still dont see how NOT being able to recrew is an advantage. Come late game everyone brings in vanilla troops to recrew support weapons, but low and behold no 50mms to recrew. It's just like the MHT- its strong and mobile, but once its gone its gone

[gamesguy2]

Disadvantages of 50mm to standard PAK :
1. Lower ROF.
2. Higher Wind-Up time.
3. Easier to hit due to it being a halftrack.
4. No Cloak.
5. Lower range.
6. Lower Sight range.
7. Repairable only once - paks can be recrewed multiple times.
8. Higher cost.

Just a few disadvantages I can list.

1. Irrelevant, when was the last time something sat in front of a pak having a nice staring contest with it?

2. No it doesn't.  It has 0.3 second wind up just like the pak.  Thats omg "huge windup time" according to you.

3. Given its enormous speed and range you would have to seriously screw up to get hit in the first place.  And thats only against ATGs.

4. 57mm doesn't have cloak either.

5. A whole 5 range, which doesn't matter because the 50mm HT can cover that distance in about .5 seconds.

6. When was the last time you used an ATG to scout?

7. Which is an advantage to all halftracks.  You'd have to be utterly incapable of micro to get the AT halftrack damaged by small arms.  Its like losing a mortar halftrack to bar rifles.  It just doesn't happen.    In fact this is a huge advantage over regular ATGs, because only things that would destroy a regular ATG can damage the 50mm, and the 50mm has repair.

8. Only in fuel, and thats to pay for the chassis.  

[Killer344]

I still dont see how NOT being able to recrew is an advantage. Come late game everyone brings in vanilla troops to recrew support weapons, but low and behold no 50mms to recrew. It's just like the MHT- its strong and mobile, but once its gone its gone

That only happens when your enemies don't know the dark arts of Scorched earth tactics   (destroy what you can't take basically)

[gamesguy2]

I still dont see how NOT being able to recrew is an advantage. Come late game everyone brings in vanilla troops to recrew support weapons, but low and behold no 50mms to recrew. It's just like the MHT- its strong and mobile, but once its gone its gone

Because the weapons that will destroy a 50mm HT will outright destroy an AT gun.  How can you recrew a pak that has been blown up into pieces?

Think of it this way, the 50mm HT is like a pak with invulnerable crew members.  Do you understand now?   Snipers, mortars, flamers, infantry with small arms, won't be able to damage the 50mm fast enough to prevent its escaping after taking only a tiny amoutn of damage.   Regular ATGs just get decrewed.  

Seriously, whats so hard to understand about this.   Think what weapons kill your mortar HT.   AT guns, M10 rushes, Recoiless rifles.   Those things would rape an AT gun as well, even easier 90% of the time, and they would leave no carcass for your infantry to recrew.    But on the flipside, the anti-infantry weapons that normally decrew an ATG does nothing to a 50mm because it can just drive away at 400miles per hour.

[Sharpshooter44]

I completely agree with Gamesguy tbh

[LuAn]

On a side note: Why is everything in those forums somewhat America/Wehrmacht centered? P4 being the #1 reference for any tank and everyone is just mentioning america/wehr stuff, every balance/doctrine/unit discussion there is, always becomes centered around those 2 factions, what they can/should/dont do etc
Thats just ****** to me, there are other factions too but everbody seems to ignore them unless he wants a nerf comparing America - PE, Wehr-Brits....
(Example: Armor Doctrine IS UP it doesnt buff my Tanks to oneshot a p4! Yet every pe vehicle but 1 gets torn abart by american armor...)

[gamesguy2]

But on the flipside, the anti-infantry weapons that normally decrew an ATG does nothing to a 50mm because it can just drive away at 400miles per hour.

Piat Ambush and 6Pder are pretty nasty to avoid.

Piats and 6 pounders are not anti-infantry weapons....

[Jazzhead]

On a side note: Why is everything in those forums somewhat America/Wehrmacht centered? P4 being the #1 reference for any tank and everyone is just mentioning america/wehr stuff, every balance/doctrine/unit discussion there is, always becomes centered around those 2 factions, what they can/should/dont do etc
Thats just ****** to me, there are other factions too but everbody seems to ignore them unless he wants a nerf comparing America - PE, Wehr-Brits....
(Example: Armor Doctrine IS UP it doesnt buff my Tanks to oneshot a p4! Yet every pe vehicle but 1 gets torn abart by american armor...)

+1
If we keep buffing US and WM to keep up with each other, what will happen to PE (and brits)??

[TheWindCriesMary]

 Leave the 50mm ht as it is, it is fine.

 Yes it does do things that other atg's from other doctrines cannot, granted, but then frankly I would be very careful about opening up that can of worms because there are alot of american/british units in the same "role" category that can do things my PE units can't. Is that unfair?

 The argument of: "omfg 50mm at guns are underpriced/unfair because im american and my atg's dont move! And the things you use to counter my atg's dont kill atht's as easily! OVERPOWERED WTF" is inane. Especially considering PE is already a hard enough faction to play without having the one or two units that shine being complained into oblivion by forum balance-lobbyists.

-Wind
 

[wildsolus]

bold I think the problem is the unit itself isn't too OP, it's the fact with the new availability system you can afford to have more then the 2 you could have with the previous system and price doesn't put a huge dent on your resources either.. combined with the fact the pop is extremely small for how effective it is. you can have 1-2 50mm on the field and hold off most allied armor with no other AT on the field (no other AT from yourself anyway). the rest of your pop can consist of supporting g43's, assault grens, AC's, mortar ht's etc etc is crazy.

and remember, the unit doesn't exist in vcoh. a lot of allied players didn't think the unit was needed in the first place especially on a mobile platform. i accepted the fact PE needed some help support wise since the brits got there at gun, mg and mortar... but to give them a unit that is cheap, low pop in all doctrines and extremely effective to the point that no one will buy a regular ATHT anymore is absurd.

[gamesguy2]

Leave the 50mm ht as it is, it is fine.

 Yes it does do things that other atg's from other doctrines cannot, granted, but then frankly I would be very careful about opening up that can of worms because there are alot of american/british units in the same "role" category that can do things my PE units can't. Is that unfair?

 The argument of: "omfg 50mm at guns are underpriced/unfair because im american and my atg's dont move! And the things you use to counter my atg's dont kill atht's as easily! OVERPOWERED WTF" is inane. Especially considering PE is already a hard enough faction to play without having the one or two units that shine being complained into oblivion by forum balance-lobbyists.

-Wind
 

PE has plenty of units that are much better than their wehr/ami counterparts.  Infantry HT, armored car, marder(compared to pak), mortar HT, scout car, etc.

[Mysthalin]

People don't buy the regular ATHT anymore

People never bought the regular ATHT anymore even before the 50mm ATHT was implemented. It's just not a viable anti-tank solution, and can only be used for the treadbreaker disabling ability. It does not have the firepower to be a viable anti-tank asset.
Saying that it's the 50mm ATHT that caused the lack of use in the 37 mm LATHT is just wrong.

I personally still use(and a lot of other players still use) the LATHT in combination with the 50 mm ATHT. It's a very useful unit for disabling light vehicles so that your 50mms don't get circled.

1. Irrelevant, when was the last time something sat in front of a pak having a nice staring contest with it?

Yes, because whenever a unit engages another unit it's a non-microed 1v1 of one flanking the other, and instantly winning.

2. No it doesn't.  It has 0.3 second wind up just like the pak.  Thats omg "huge windup time" according to you.

May I quote Hotfix W : The tracking radius has been reduced for the 50mm ATHT. It covers a lesser area, and thusly it's wind-up time, being the same as the pak, is relatively larger when compared to the relative covered area of the pak and it's wind-up time.

3. Given its enormous speed and range you would have to seriously screw up to get hit in the first place.  And thats only against ATGs.

Try microing them yourself? Their pathing is god awful, and if you engage with a 50mm ATHT, it's a fight to the death. Well, unless it's infantry, then you scamper off with a quarter of your health missing in the 5 seconds it took to get away.

4. 57mm doesn't have cloak either.

I was comparing it to the standard Pak, not to the 57mm. Oh, and the 6 pdr does have cloak. And the 57 has AP rounds.

5. A whole 5 range, which doesn't matter because the 50mm HT can cover that distance in about .5 seconds.

Yes, and because of the 5 range, it can not engage such targets like the firefly without fear of retribution, unlike the pak.

6. When was the last time you used an ATG to scout?

2 days ago, but that was when the pak T2 wasn't fixed yet.
And extra sight range means more effective range without a spotter. It also allows for better battlefield awareness - sight range is useful not just for scouting.

7. Which is an advantage to all halftracks.  You'd have to be utterly incapable of micro to get the AT halftrack damaged by small arms.  Its like losing a mortar halftrack to bar rifles.  It just doesn't happen.    In fact this is a huge advantage over regular ATGs, because only things that would destroy a regular ATG can damage the 50mm, and the 50mm has repair.

Try them yourself - it's a pain to micro even 1 ATHT, microing 3 at once is mazochism. An ATG/Pak can be recrewed multiple times over, AND be repaired multiple times over by a triage/radio scout car. THe 50mm ATHT gets repaired once, and not to full health. Rifle fire does rip ATHTs apart - and it's not like you have extra sight range to spot the incoming rifles before they open fire upon you. It doesn't have tank armour.

8. Only in fuel, and thats to pay for the chassis.  

The overall cost is indeed higher, and you know it. Each point of fuel resource is worth more than each point of munitions resource (2000 base munitions as oposed to 1250 fuel).

290 MP 80+25 MU 60 FU
vs
380 MP 120 MU

It is a relative of (spent resources to total resources) :
3.625% + 4% (+ 1.25%) + 4.8% = 12.425 (+1.25) percent resources spent. 13.675% if you buy the repair kit.
to
4.75% + 6% = 10.75% percent resources spent.

Because the weapons that will destroy a 50mm HT will outright destroy an AT gun

Rifle fire will kill a halftrack faster than it will kill an ATG. And most AT sources have lower accuracy vs ATGs than they do vs the 50mm ATHT.


How is the armoured car better than either the T17 or the Greyhound? What use is the scout car of? A jeep beats it handily.

[gamesguy2]

People never bought the regular ATHT anymore even before the 50mm ATHT was implemented. It's just not a viable anti-tank solution, and can only be used for the treadbreaker disabling ability.

I used to use the regular ATHT, until the 50mm made it redundant.

Yes, because whenever a unit engages another unit it's a non-microed 1v1 of one flanking the other, and instantly winning.

Stop trying to pretend the pak has a snowball's chance in hell of surviving a circling tank without backup AT.

May I quote Hotfix W : The tracking radius has been reduced for the 50mm ATHT. It covers a lesser area, and thusly it's wind-up time, being the same as the pak, is relatively larger when compared to the relative covered area of the pak and it's wind-up time.

Irrelevant, because the turn speed of the 50mm ATHT is plenty fast enough to compensate.

Try microing them yourself? Their pathing is god awful, and if you engage with a 50mm ATHT, it's a fight to the death. Well, unless it's infantry, then you scamper off with a quarter of your health missing in the 5 seconds it took to get away.

I have used them myself, their pathing is exactly the same as a regular HT.  I have no trouble with pathing.

There is no way you can use a quarter of your hp in 5 seconds to small arms fire unless you are blind and let 5 squads of bar rifles walk into range.

I was comparing it to the standard Pak, not to the 57mm. Oh, and the 6 pdr does have cloak. And the 57 has AP rounds.

PE already had one of the best AT packages in the game.  Between marders, shrek clown cars, and the ATHT, there is absolutely no need for a pak on wheels.

Yes, and because of the 5 range, it can not engage such targets like the firefly without fear of retribution, unlike the pak.

It would be silly to engage a 50mm HT with a firefly regardless.   Especially given the enormous difference in cost.

2 days ago, but that was when the pak T2 wasn't fixed yet.

Red herring, thank you for admitting it yourself.

And extra sight range means more effective range without a spotter. It also allows for better battlefield awareness - sight range is useful not just for scouting.

Regular ATGs need that extra sight because they can't even fight off or run away from a pio with flamer.  The 50mm can easilly run away from infantry.

Try them yourself - it's a pain to micro even 1 ATHT, microing 3 at once is mazochism.

I have no trouble microing two of them at the same time, and I now run five 50mm HTs in my PE company.  They rape any and all vehicles including ATGs.

An ATG/Pak can be recrewed multiple times over, AND be repaired multiple times over by a triage/radio scout car. THe 50mm ATHT gets repaired once, and not to full health. Rifle fire does rip ATHTs apart - and it's not like you have extra sight range to spot the incoming rifles before they open fire upon you. It doesn't have tank armour.

Red herring.  The 50mm HT is not vulnerable to the weapons that would decrew an ATG, and ATGs heal extremely slowly in the presence of a traige, let alone a radio scout car.  In addition, ATGs are extremely slow in the first place so they cannot easilly escape like the 50mm can.   

The overall cost is indeed higher, and you know it. Each point of fuel resource is worth more than each point of munitions resource (2000 base munitions as oposed to 1250 fuel).

Pointless comparison.   Would you trade the mortar HT for a 81mm mortar?   How about the marder and the 50mm HT for a pak?  I know my PE company sure as hell wouldn't.   Long range support weapons mounted on a HT chassis are much more powerful compared to their vanilla cousins.   

Rifle fire will kill a halftrack faster than it will kill an ATG. And most AT sources have lower accuracy vs ATGs than they do vs the 50mm ATHT.

No it wouldn't.  A 50mm HT can easilly escape rifles while taking minimal damage.  Rifles not known for their massive long range on the move firepower.

How is the armoured car better than either the T17 or the Greyhound? What use is the scout car of? A jeep beats it handily.

T17 is overpowered as I've stated multiple times.  The armored car is nothing like the greyhound, which is an utility vehicle with moderate AT/AI.    For killing infantry however, the AC does vastly more damage than the M8, is much cheaper, and takes up 2 less pop.

Scout car is the best unit in the game for ninja capping.  A good PE player can be a right pain in the ass by keeping one scout car alive to cap the whole game.   Just as any good PE player.

[Malevolence]

May I quote Hotfix W : The tracking radius has been reduced for the 50mm ATHT. It covers a lesser area, and thusly it's wind-up time, being the same as the pak, is relatively larger when compared to the relative covered area of the pak and it's wind-up time.

Technically speaking that doesn't make its windup time more, it just makes it more affected by its windup time.

Not that it will be a real problem if any unit is being tracked at roughly medium range when compared to a PaK, and at point blank and near ranges the PaK can't do any better.

I was comparing it to the standard Pak, not to the 57mm. Oh, and the 6 pdr does have cloak. And the 57 has AP rounds.

And 50mm ATHT is mounted on a fucking halftrack. Different advantages...

Rifle fire will kill a halftrack faster than it will kill an ATG. And most AT sources have lower accuracy vs ATGs than they do vs the 50mm ATHT.

Rifle fire will guaranteed decrew an AT gun before it kills an ATHT, even from the front. Now you're taking manpower drain on your AT gun even if it doesn't die, ATHT just speeds off into the night having taken a minor clipping to the wings. After another two times that happens, then maybe it has to go use a 25 munitions repair, but after another two times that has happened to an AT gun, you're out 250 manpower...

How is the armoured car better than either the T17 or the Greyhound?

Faster. Less dangerous AT environment.

What use is the scout car of? A jeep beats it handily.

Caps territory. Also wtf jeep are you using, uber mode armor onboard jeep from EiR 1.0?


Also, in regards to triage/scout car healing, first of all, since when does logistik car PE get PaK 38? Second, only one of three American doctrines can even consider using a triage to heal AT guns, and even then it's a 140 mu AT gun repair/infantry medkit? Fairly pricey if you ask me, plus it's a lot slower than halftrack repair.

[CrazyWR]

do airborne medics fix AT guns?

[gamesguy2]

do airborne medics fix AT guns?

Airborne medics fix ATGs at the speed of continental drift.

[pernik]

lol

[gamesguy2]

lol

It takes approximately 25 minutes to heal an ATG from 1 hp using a squad of airborne medics.