50mm ATHT

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[pernik]

I was wondering how come my ATG wasn't healed (noticeable) yet they say they can be healed

[Mysthalin]

lol

It takes approximately four hours and ten minutes to heal an ATG from 1 hp using a squad of airborne medics.

Grenadier regen is faster than airborne medics, and we all know how slow that is.

Then it would mean it takes approximately... 30 minutes to heal up a half-health airborne squad. I don't think that is the case, and that you're mixing something up.

[Sixpack]

Too sum up a little (without quoting everyone...):

The light ATHT was not very usefull in the enviroment we have and only helped to get marders kill of enemy tanks or slow down enemy armour advances, it dies fast and does not a lot of dmg thus being not helpfull in a vehicle heavy enviroment, also it is expensive. Difficult to use offensive.

The 50mm ATHT is a god sent gift by the mods giving the PE a chance to stop light vehicle spam and armour rushes though a combination with a marder is important (or other at of wehr players), it dies fast if you do not babysit it and is vulnerable to atgs.

If I would have the choice between two PAKs or a Marder and 50mm I would take the two Paks (don´t compare one PAK with a Marder and 50mm).

ATGs seem to get the 5% bug, I once tried to kill a atg with 1 50mm and Marder blasting away at it. It had like 5% health and took another 5 hits.

I would take two 81mms over the two Mortar HTs any day:
Pros: more range
        more damage
Cons: sligtly lesser mobility
         no burninator shot

Pathing is a real problem if you have not got 1337 skills in microing every unit on the field.

Not cost effective to engage a 50mm with a firefly, so after your logic a pershing should only engage a Tiger or Kint Tiger (yes, I am overdoing it, but not by a lot compared to you).


Furthermore and rather important: The way I see it the whole thread was started by a disgruntled player who got outscouted in a game and is unhappy about a nice shiny new unit that is cost effective at what it is supposed to do on the other side (he plays allies) thus blaming everything on this one unit.

[gamesguy2]

lol

It takes approximately four hours and ten minutes to heal an ATG from 1 hp using a squad of airborne medics.

Grenadier regen is faster than airborne medics, and we all know how slow that is.

Then it would mean it takes approximately... 30 minutes to heal up a half-health airborne squad. I don't think that is the case, and that you're mixing something up.

I was going by the changelog and it appears to be wrong. I looked it up myself, its 0.2 hp per second.

That means it would take 300/0.2=25 minutes to fully heal an ATG.   Real practical.

[gamesguy2]

Too sum up a little (without quoting everyone...):

The light ATHT was not very usefull in the enviroment we have and only helped to get marders kill of enemy tanks or slow down enemy armour advances, it dies fast and does not a lot of dmg thus being not helpfull in a vehicle heavy enviroment, also it is expensive. Difficult to use offensive.

Yes, the light ATHT is like a super sticky on a fast platform combined with an infantry sniping ability.   If ATG+ sticky is good enough for Americans, why is marder+ATHT, both of which are superior to the American version not good enough?

The 50mm ATHT is a god sent gift by the mods giving the PE a chance to stop light vehicle spam and armour rushes though a combination with a marder is important (or other at of wehr players), it dies fast if you do not babysit it and is vulnerable to atgs.

The Shreked clown car already did that.   I remember getting 8 light vehicle kills within the first 15 minutes of a game with a dual shreked tank buster squad in a clown car.

If I would have the choice between two PAKs or a Marder and 50mm I would take the two Paks (don´t compare one PAK with a Marder and 50mm).

I wouldn't.   Two paks offers you zero mobility.  If your ally is attacked and overwhelmed by two players spamming light vehicles(easy to do) your paks will do him no good.  By the time the paks slowly get over there your ally will have lost everything.

The marder and the 50mm HT offers much more mobility.  The pak is like a MG42, the 50mm HT is like a quad.   There is a reason the quad costs an arm and a leg compared to the MG42.    And you can even argue that the quad is even more vulnerable than the MG42 because AT weapons normally won't do much to a MG but will kill a quad.   The analogy is nearly perfect.  The quad is much weaker than the MG in terms of suppression and damage, but costs much more manpower, munitions, and costs fuel as well.

Why does the pak on wheels do not cost 100 more munitions and manpower compared to the pak the way quad does(as compared to HMG).

ATGs seem to get the 5% bug, I once tried to kill a atg with 1 50mm and Marder blasting away at it. It had like 5% health and took another 5 hits.

ATGs have 25% chance to survive a hit at 5% hp.  The 50mm HT has 33% chance to survive a hit 5% hp.  It can't even get engine destroyed so it can just speed away to repair.

I would take two 81mms over the two Mortar HTs any day:
Pros: more range
        more damage
Cons: sligtly lesser mobility
         no burninator shot

The mortar HT does the same damage as the wehr mortar.   More range is helpful but being invulnerable to counter mortar and anti-infantry weapons is more helpful.

Slightly less mobility?  You call having to pack/unpack plus 3 speed vs 6.5 speed "slightly less speed"?  By your definition of "slightly less speed" the king tiger is only "slightly slower" than a M10.    

Not to mention the "burninator shot" is by far the best anti-support weapon in the game.  One shot decrews an ATG/mortar/HMG with no chance for it to escape.  With regular mortar barrages against an opponent paying attention it often takes multiple barrages because your opponent would reposition as good as the first shell lands(which usually misses).

Pathing is a real problem if you have not got 1337 skills in microing every unit on the field.

I've not had trouble with its pathing.  Its the same as all the halftracks.

Not cost effective to engage a 50mm with a firefly, so after your logic a pershing should only engage a Tiger or Kint Tiger (yes, I am overdoing it, but not by a lot compared to you).

I don't know what you are talking about.  Its not cost effective for a firefly to sit there and trade shots with a 50mm HT so mystalin's point that the firefly could shoot back at the 50mm(one specialist tank out of a dozen) is meaningless.   Just like how its not cost effective for a stubby sherman to sit there and trade shots with a stug.    

Furthermore and rather important: The way I see it the whole thread was started by a disgruntled player who got outscouted in a game and is unhappy about a nice shiny new unit that is cost effective at what it is supposed to do on the other side (he plays allies) thus blaming everything on this one unit.

Spare me, mystalin used zero scouts that game.  He basically rushed 50mm HTs at my ATG and sniped them to death from the front.

I'd like to see a company that doesn't have RRs and relies on its ATGs/tank destroyers for mainline AT counter this strat.  Its not freaking possible.  The 50mm HTs rape all your ATGs and armor.  My PE company already has five 50mm HTs, they rape basically everything except infantry, and infantry can't touch them.  You can even use them to snipe MGs and mortars.   You should not have to go airborne to counter one overpowered unit.

[Ununoctium]

I'd like to see a company that doesn't have RRs and relies on its ATGs/tank destroyers for mainline AT counter this strat.  Its not freaking possible.  The 50mm HTs rape all your ATGs and armor.  My PE company already has five 50mm HTs, they rape basically everything except infantry, and infantry can't touch them.  You can even use them to snipe MGs and mortars.   You should not have to go airborne to counter one overpowered unit.

Well I play armour and all my buffs are offensive to i get no help vs camo paks 88s or reversing ATHT. 15% speed boost T2 kinda helps my tanks keep up but panther is still faster than sherman unless i get flank speed T1 and pay muni.

As armour I find 50mm a complete bitch of an AT weapon. I simply cannot get them. just kill my 3/4ATG with any of the axis arty or the 50mm and im fucked. its the only AT gun immune to AT gun sniping wars.

[Sixpack]

Yes, the light ATHT is like a super sticky on a fast platform combined with an infantry sniping ability.   If ATG+ sticky is good enough for Americans, why is marder+ATHT, both of which are superior to the American version not good enough?

Marder+ATHT is not superior, light vehicles can still circlestrafe the marder even with damaged engine, after it happened to me two times in a row it was game over for the ATHT, the "supersticky" is more expensive on a lower availibilty and can be seen and expected more easily, the fear factor of rifles is far higher.

The Shreked clown car already did that.   I remember getting 8 light vehicle kills within the first 15 minutes of a game with a dual shreked tank buster squad in a clown car.

Dual Schreck, 1/3 for PE, expensive, I am sure you didn´t kill 8 light vehicles at full health with your clown car. It is like saying "I got 26 infantry kills on my Panther by running over them" but leaving out the rest of the story.

I wouldn't.   Two paks offers you zero mobility.  If your ally is attacked and overwhelmed by two players spamming light vehicles(easy to do) your paks will do him no good.  By the time the paks slowly get over there your ally will have lost everything.

Zero mobilty, you joker. Have you never seen good atg use? It is so simple to push with infantry and just keep the atgs moving up behind, your scouts die you pull back but think your vehicle can hold it until the first shot hits, of course your szenare is possible but usually the fighting is far more intense on a small sector on the map where a lot of the forces are concentrated. Even the Marder and ATHT wouldn´t help against that kind of spam, and you know it.

The marder and the 50mm HT offers much more mobility.  The pak is like a MG42, the 50mm HT is like a quad.   There is a reason the quad costs an arm and a leg compared to the MG42.    And you can even argue that the quad is even more vulnerable than the MG42 because AT weapons normally won't do much to a MG but will kill a quad.   The analogy is nearly perfect.  The quad is much weaker than the MG in terms of suppression and damage, but costs much more manpower, munitions, and costs fuel as well.
Why does the pak on wheels do not cost 100 more munitions and manpower compared to the pak the way quad does(as compared to HMG).

To start:
The 50mm compared to the quad costs 10 mp and 20 mun less but 50 fuel more.
The Quad only costs 30 more MP and 60 more Munitions with a litle fuel compared to the 42.
(ergo your post is biased)
The quad is more vunerable to at weapons then the mg, but mgs can be atg sniped, killed by destroying the building and sometimes you can kill it by destrying the gun. The Mgs need to set up, unlike atgs, Quad or 50mm. The mg 42 is the best in suppression, sure. But the 30cal can most of the time kill at least one guy of a squad and the quad is like a mobile version of the 30cal, not 42. Your not even saying how you compare them.

ATGs have 25% chance to survive a hit at 5% hp.  The 50mm HT has 33% chance to survive a hit 5% hp.  It can't even get engine destroyed so it can just speed away to repair.

Considering it is only 25% it happens rather often to me and the 50mm HT likes to die and ignore the 5% bug.

The mortar HT does the same damage as the wehr mortar.   More range is helpful but being invulnerable to counter mortar and anti-infantry weapons is more helpful.

Because dying to ATGs, Piats, tanks and all other kind of anti tank weapon is better.

Slightly less mobility?  You call having to pack/unpack plus 3 speed vs 6.5 speed "slightly less speed"?  By your definition of "slightly less speed" the king tiger is only "slightly slower" than a M10.    

Yes, considering how the battlefields work in EiRR it has only slithly less mobility.

Not to mention the "burninator shot" is by far the best anti-support weapon in the game.  One shot decrews an ATG/mortar/HMG with no chance for it to escape.  With regular mortar barrages against an opponent paying attention it often takes multiple barrages because your opponent would reposition as good as the first shell lands(which usually misses).

Because it always hits the exact position and always works 100%, your opinion is totally biased.

I've not had trouble with its pathing.  Its the same as all the halftracks.

Which is horrible if you don´t supermicro them.

I don't know what you are talking about.  Its not cost effective for a firefly to sit there and trade shots with a 50mm HT so mystalin's point that the firefly could shoot back at the 50mm(one specialist tank out of a dozen) is meaningless.   Just like how its not cost effective for a stubby sherman to sit there and trade shots with a stug.

   

You do know that mystalin pointed out the range advantage of the firefly and the turret advantage. The way you said it was/is: if it costs more then what it engages it is not cost effective.

Spare me, mystalin used zero scouts that game.  He basically rushed 50mm HTs at my ATG and sniped them to death from the front.

So he used a risky tactic and won, the same ammount of atgs as 50mms would have won the encounter.

I'd like to see a company that doesn't have RRs and relies on its ATGs/tank destroyers for mainline AT counter this strat.  Its not freaking possible.  The 50mm HTs rape all your ATGs and armor.  My PE company already has five 50mm HTs, they rape basically everything except infantry, and infantry can't touch them.  You can even use them to snipe MGs and mortars.   You should not have to go airborne to counter one overpowered unit.

Considering the ammount of at options the allies have there is no problem at all in countering the 50mm, it is only hard to catch. RRs are just the best option. Zooks, brens (soon probably Boys) atgs, light vehicles, tanks. If you charge head on into a unit that is suited for that kind of situation you get what you deserve, just like when I charge 4 vet 2 squads of infantry into an HMG.

[LuAn]

Again: this discussion became centere around America, especially Armor Doctrine

A while ago, i talked to AMPM about the AB>RR issue, he said to me: "The Doctrines are like a rock paper scissor system"

Whereas Brits can reign destruction over PE via their(Cloaked) Piats(Ambush) and cloaked 6pder, Armor struggles versus PE, especially TH.

Now what i dont quite understand:
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=11802.0
Whereas PE simply has to accept being bullied by Airborne, America Armor defies the rule of TH over them, and is working on a revolution.(Are there any British Engineer Players involved in this too?)


And similiar to alot of other balance threads this one will come to a halt and vanish under the daily amout of newly created balance threads.


It just hit me: Maybe "nerf" the 50mm abit, up its pop to 5 as a start e.g., but at the same time "buff" Anti Tank Grenades to become a viable/usefull weapon

[fallensoldier7]

Considering the ammount of at options the allies have there is no problem at all in countering the 50mm, it is only hard to catch. RRs are just the best option. Zooks, brens (soon probably Boys) atgs, light vehicles, tanks. If you charge head on into a unit that is suited for that kind of situation you get what you deserve, just like when I charge 4 vet 2 squads of infantry into an HMG.

Hmm as armor doctrine we've got.. let's see.. ATGs. 

Whereas PE simply has to accept being bullied by Airborne, America Armor defies the rule of TH over them, and is working on a revolution.(Are there any British Engineer Players involved in this too?)

No, armor is still ruled by TH.  Actually, armor is ruled by pretty much every PE doctrine since 50mm is non-doctrinal.  TH just makes it easier to rule over armor.

[RikiRude]

true, just load up clown cars with those stabilized shrecks and you will never escape them. it's hard enough to kill clown cars as armor unless you trick them into running into one of your 57's and don't send out a lone light vehicle to cap on it's own either. god what i would do for RR or ranger reinforcements as armor!

[Mgallun74]

true, just load up clown cars with those stabilized shrecks and you will never escape them. it's hard enough to kill clown cars as armor unless you trick them into running into one of your 57's and don't send out a lone light vehicle to cap on it's own either. god what i would do for RR or ranger reinforcements as armor!

this is one "Realism" argument i would love to see.. Shreks out of vehicles? or buildings?  ya ok..  kill shooting any Handheld AT out of vehicles..

[RikiRude]

true, just load up clown cars with those stabilized shrecks and you will never escape them. it's hard enough to kill clown cars as armor unless you trick them into running into one of your 57's and don't send out a lone light vehicle to cap on it's own either. god what i would do for RR or ranger reinforcements as armor!

this is one "Realism" argument i would love to see.. Shreks out of vehicles? or buildings?  ya ok..  kill shooting any Handheld AT out of vehicles..

Actually I would like to go into the realism of that!

The back blast from any hand held AT especially in a small HT like that would probably kill or severely burn all the men in the car, including the shooter. This will bring us to the "OPness" of piats. They were fired off of a spring, so if you wanted you could still fire them out of the kangaroo or bren carrier =)

I also never understood why relic thought it was such an amazing idea to give units in a vehicle perfect accuracy, i mean it's a moving vehicle, should be a 25% chance or less to hit anything.

[Mgallun74]

true, just load up clown cars with those stabilized shrecks and you will never escape them. it's hard enough to kill clown cars as armor unless you trick them into running into one of your 57's and don't send out a lone light vehicle to cap on it's own either. god what i would do for RR or ranger reinforcements as armor!

yep, piats where only handheld at weapon of war that could shoot out of buildings, dont think  anyone tried vehicles moving lol.  i just laugh when a HT comes up and 2 naders with 2 shk each shoot 4 perfect shots at my sherman while moving fast and hit it perfectly and kill it lol.  its like, yaaaaaaaaa, ok!    is that balanced?  maybe we can get my TR rangers or something to shot out of HT just to balance it ?

this is one "Realism" argument i would love to see.. Shreks out of vehicles? or buildings?  ya ok..  kill shooting any Handheld AT out of vehicles..

Actually I would like to go into the realism of that!

The back blast from any hand held AT especially in a small HT like that would probably kill or severely burn all the men in the car, including the shooter. This will bring us to the "OPness" of piats. They were fired off of a spring, so if you wanted you could still fire them out of the kangaroo or bren carrier =)

I also never understood why relic thought it was such an amazing idea to give units in a vehicle perfect accuracy, i mean it's a moving vehicle, should be a 25% chance or less to hit anything.

[Ununoctium]

PE resorts to clown cars because they have only panther for close range AT.

Piats in bren same reason.

sherman and p4 and m10 cover that gap in the other armies.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Marder+ATHT is not superior, light vehicles can still circlestrafe the marder even with damaged engine, after it happened to me two times in a row it was game over for the ATHT, the "supersticky" is more expensive on a lower availibilty and can be seen and expected more easily, the fear factor of rifles is far higher.

If a Marder and 50mm HT are covering each other, then they cannot be circled.

Dual Schreck, 1/3 for PE, expensive, I am sure you didn´t kill 8 light vehicles at full health with your clown car. It is like saying "I got 26 infantry kills on my Panther by running over them" but leaving out the rest of the story.

Clowncars are the one time that Schrecks are actually useful, and I fully believe that a well-microed (and lucky) dual-Schreck HT could rack up 8 kills vs a light vehicle spammer (though I'm sure some of them were small things like Jeeps).

Dual Schreck, 1/3 for PE, expensive, I am sure you didn´t kill 8 light vehicles at full health with your clown car. It is like saying "I got 26 infantry kills on my Panther by running over them" but leaving out the rest of the story.

He's not talking about pushing with ATGs, he's talking about moving to/responding to things on the other side of the map. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's saying that 500mm/Marder's higher speed and mobility are invaluable to supporting your allies or responding to enemy advances. Also, as in your example, 50mm/Marders can 'push up' just as well as ATGs can (if not better).

The 50mm compared to the quad costs 10 mp and 20 mun less but 50 fuel more.
The Quad only costs 30 more MP and 60 more Munitions with a litle fuel compared to the 42.
(ergo your post is biased)

Stop expecting cost/utility to be exactly mirror. I'd say the comparison of the MG/PaK and the Quad/50mm is a fair one. Not perfect, but the closest you can get.

but mgs can be atg sniped, killed by destroying the building and sometimes you can kill it by destrying the gun

Saying that an MG can be killed by ATG fire is like saying a 50mm can be killed by small arms: while it is theoretically possible, no competent player will actually let it happen.

The Mgs need to set up, unlike atgs

What?

the quad is like a mobile version of the 30cal, not 42

You really don't know how Quads work, do you?

Considering it is only 25% it happens rather often to me and the 50mm HT likes to die and ignore the 5% bug.

What you perceive and/or remember =/= reality.

Because dying to ATGs, Piats, tanks and all other kind of anti tank weapon is better.

This is getting off-topic, but MHT is not as vulnerable as you're making it out to be. It's range is 70 (which is only 5 less than the Ami mortar), and it shouldn't even be within range of the enemy anyways.

Yes, considering how the battlefields work in EiRR it has only slithly less mobility.

This is where you really lose me. If you really think the HT has only "slightly" more speed/mobility than an ATG (or Mortar, for that matter), then i really don't know what to say.

Because it always hits the exact position and always works 100%, your opinion is totally biased.

Again, this is getting off-topic, but yes, Incendiary barrage is accurate/powerful enough to be effective at least 80% of the time. I won't say it's 100% (and gamesguy was obviously exaggerating), but it's close.

Which is horrible if you don´t supermicro them.

I'l agree with you that HT's pathing is shite, unless you're a micro god (which I think gamnesguy is).

So he used a risky tactic and won,

It's only risky if there's a good chance of failure.

Considering the ammount of at options the allies have there is no problem at all in countering the 50mm

Infantry can't catch/keep up with the 50mm, and light vehicles/tanks are too susceptible to it.

IMO, the 50mm's main gun should get another slight range decrease, and a slightly higher ROF. Right now the thing is virtually a PaK on wheels; it's should lose a bit more of its firepower in order to make up for its high speed and mobility.

[wildsolus]

PE resorts to clown cars because they have only panther for close range AT.

didnt know the panther was supposed to be used for close range AT.

guess tankbusters are a myth!

[gamesguy2]

Marder+ATHT is not superior, light vehicles can still circlestrafe the marder even with damaged engine, after it happened to me two times in a row it was game over for the ATHT, the "supersticky" is more expensive on a lower availibilty and can be seen and expected more easily, the fear factor of rifles is far higher.

What a light vehicle can't circle strafe an ATG while engine damaged?  And no, marder cannot be circled by an engine damaged anything.  It has M10 speed and against a damage engine vehicle you just back up.   Amazing concept I know, actually microing your marder instead of letting it sit there and get circled to death.  No light vehicle in the game can kill the marder fast btw.  M8/stuart has poor damage and rof.

Dual Schreck, 1/3 for PE, expensive, I am sure you didn´t kill 8 light vehicles at full health with your clown car. It is like saying "I got 26 infantry kills on my Panther by running over them" but leaving out the rest of the story.

Considering the dual shreks were my only AT, yes I did kill 8 light vehicles at full health with my clown car.  They were vet 3, I had to repair the clown car inbetween, but they did kill 8 vehicles before the clown car became critically damaged and I had to dismount.    Now granted 5 of them were Quads or HTs that couldn't hurt me, but that clown car has paid for itself by killing just two quads, let alone 8 vehicles.

Zero mobilty, you joker. Have you never seen good atg use? It is so simple to push with infantry and just keep the atgs moving up behind, your scouts die you pull back but think your vehicle can hold it until the first shot hits, of course your szenare is possible but usually the fighting is far more intense on a small sector on the map where a lot of the forces are concentrated. Even the Marder and ATHT wouldn´t help against that kind of spam, and you know it.

Umm do you know what the term teamwork means?    Maybe your games are two or three 1v1s but in my games my opponents like to work together.     If your opponent rushes your ally your paks are worthless because they can't get over there fast enough to help against the rush.     Thats always been the downside of ATGs.

To start:
The 50mm compared to the quad costs 10 mp and 20 mun less but 50 fuel more.

What crack are you smoking.  The quad costs 310 mp, 100 mun, and 30 fuel.  The 50mm HT costs 290 mp, 80mun, and 60 fuel.

The Quad only costs 30 more MP and 60 more Munitions with a litle fuel compared to the 42.
(ergo your post is biased)

Its called an exaggeration.  Not to mention 60 munitions is a LOT when the 42 only costs 40 munitions.  The quad costs 150% more munitions compared to the 42.   The 50mm HT costs less munitions and manpower compared to the pak.

If the 50mm HT costed 30 more MP and 60 more munitions compared to the pak I would think it wouldn't be as overpowered.

The quad is more vunerable to at weapons then the mg, but mgs can be atg sniped, killed by destroying the building and sometimes you can kill it by destrying the gun. The Mgs need to set up, unlike atgs, Quad or 50mm.

MGs can be sniped by an ATG only by someone totally not paying attention and just letting it sit there.    Its like losing a 50mm or a marder to small arms fire.  Its theoretically possible but would take an AFK person to manage it.

The mg 42 is the best in suppression, sure. But the 30cal can most of the time kill at least one guy of a squad and the quad is like a mobile version of the 30cal, not 42. Your not even saying how you compare them.

Quad dps vs infantry l/m/s: 2.61, 5.88, 13.4
MG42 dps vs infantry l/m/s: 4.257, 10.87, 28.15
The MG42 does roughly twice the dps of the quad, more if you take accuracy incremental modifier into account.    You make claims like "quad does more dps than mg42" and then you call me biased rofl.   Does the pak do twice the dps of the 50mm HT?    Lets cut the 50mm HT's dps to half that of the pak and increase its price to 30 more mp/60 more mun compared to the pak since you think the quad is very balanced.   Lets reduce the fuel cost of the 50mm to 30 like the quad.  You would be perfectly happy with this I assume?

Considering it is only 25% it happens rather often to me and the 50mm HT likes to die and ignore the 5% bug.

Anectodal evidence is pretty much the most useless sort there is.  The game files don't lie.

Because dying to ATGs, Piats, tanks and all other kind of anti tank weapon is better.

Because piats and tanks don't kill mortars?  The MHT can at least run away, the regular mortar, if caught, is basically dead.   Not to mention the MHT is not vulnerable to counter mortar fire.

Yes, considering how the battlefields work in EiRR it has only slithly less mobility.

You heard it here first folks.  Sixpack thinks the King Tiger only has "slightly less mobility" compared to the M10.

Because it always hits the exact position and always works 100%, your opinion is totally biased.

If you drive the MHT to about 65 range before firing it (just inside its barrage range) the burninator shot is 95% accurate. 

Which is horrible if you don´t supermicro them.

Shrugs.  I've not had trouble.  P4s have the worst pathing in the game, doesnt stop them from pwning face.

You do know that mystalin pointed out the range advantage of the firefly and the turret advantage. The way you said it was/is: if it costs more then what it engages it is not cost effective.

What range advantage?  Firefly has no range advantage, or if it does, its negligible.   Turret advantage is pointless because the 50mm HT can turn faster than the firefly's turret.

Certain unit matchups are not cost effective.  Trying to slug it out(no flanking) against a stug with a sherman or cromwell is not cost effective.   Trying to slug it out with a 50mm HT with a firefly is not cost effective either.

So he used a risky tactic and won, the same ammount of atgs as 50mms would have won the encounter.

Its only risky if there is a chance of failure.   Since neither me nor my partner was airborne, there wasn't.

Considering the ammount of at options the allies have there is no problem at all in countering the 50mm, it is only hard to catch. RRs are just the best option. Zooks, brens (soon probably Boys) atgs, light vehicles, tanks. If you charge head on into a unit that is suited for that kind of situation you get what you deserve, just like when I charge 4 vet 2 squads of infantry into an HMG.

Infantry are too slow to get off more than one volley at maximum range against the 50mm HT, and thats if you are lucky.   With this qualifier, only RRs are effective.  Zooks miss too much at long range, brens button range is only 25, you may as well have called stickies a counter to the 50mm.  Boys AT do far too little damage.

Charging head on?  What else am I supposed to use?   My 57mm was slowly getting picked off one by one by the 50mm attacking them head on.  My only AT were ATGs, some stickies, a couple of bazookas, and 6 M10/M18s.

[Mysthalin]

I killed most of the ATGs with flanking IHTs loaded up with assault grens, then destroying them when they were decrewed, that game, tbfh.

Your claim that I "slugged it out from the front" with all 8 of the ATGs you had between you two with just 4 of my 50mm's is laughable. I prefer to use the 50mms to fight tanks(like the M10s and shermans you had craploads of), not ATGs.

[Sixpack]

If a Marder and 50mm HT are covering each other, then they cannot be circled.

Which is true and a reason I gave up on the ATHT, it does not push out enough DPS to kill a light vehicle efficently.

[qote]Clowncars are the one time that Schrecks are actually useful, and I fully believe that a well-microed (and lucky) dual-Schreck HT could rack up 8 kills vs a light vehicle spammer (though I'm sure some of them were small things like Jeeps).[/quote]
Nothing I can say here, thy gamesguy for the info, I will come to your post later.

He's not talking about pushing with ATGs, he's talking about moving to/responding to things on the other side of the map. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's saying that 500mm/Marder's higher speed and mobility are invaluable to supporting your allies or responding to enemy advances. Also, as in your example, 50mm/Marders can 'push up' just as well as ATGs can (if not better).

Considering the games I played the "Speed and mobility" of 50mm/Marders does not help to hold of a push because they will be without support, you have to be ready for it before it happens or they will break threw one way or the other and on maps (let´s go 3v3) like schijndel it takes some time to reach the other side which ususaly only helps feed the enemys meat grinder.

Though it is true that Marders/50mm can help in a mobile Pgren push when you want to move over an undefended flank and take out that pesky artillery/doomfort. Also pushing up with 50mm/Marders only works without allied hh at or atgs to stop them from moving up, hh at can be stoped by your own infantry but only if they have not got to fear elimination by other support weapons.

Stop expecting cost/utility to be exactly mirror. I'd say the comparison of the MG/PaK and the Quad/50mm is a fair one. Not perfect, but the closest you can get.

It depends on what you compare, obviously for you it is mobility while for me it is what you use it against.

Saying that an MG can be killed by ATG fire is like saying a 50mm can be killed by small arms: while it is theoretically possible, no competent player will actually let it happen.

Never got swarmed by brens? In this game quite a lot can happen, even to competent players.

The Mgs need to set up, unlike atgs

What?

Let us see: MG: Undeploy MG, turn around, Redeploy to face the right direction.
               ATG: Up, Turn, Down.

You really don't know how Quads work, do you?

It is from how people used it effectivly against me.

What you perceive and/or remember =/= reality.

Which is true for everyone.

This is getting off-topic, but MHT is not as vulnerable as you're making it out to be. It's range is 70 (which is only 5 less than the Ami mortar), and it shouldn't even be within range of the enemy anyways.

Because no competent player lets his MHT die?
You are thinking too much about optimal situations.
(To be honest it would help a lot of axis players, including me, to scout more and use battlefield information to gain advantages.)

This is where you really lose me. If you really think the HT has only "slightly" more speed/mobility than an ATG (or Mortar, for that matter), then i really don't know what to say.

Think about this: The enemy attacks the position of your ally on the other side of the map with overhwhelming numbers, vehicles, infantry and artillery. You wind up the engines of your Mortar HT, 50mm and Marder to rush to his support, halfway he has been overrun already, what will you?

Again, this is getting off-topic, but yes, Incendiary barrage is accurate/powerful enough to be effective at least 80% of the time. I won't say it's 100% (and gamesguy was obviously exaggerating), but it's close.

The problem is that I have to even point this out to long term players that should know better.

I'l agree with you that HT's pathing is shite, unless you're a micro god (which I think gamnesguy is).

I will go one step further and say that is the main problem. Skill level, micro, use of units, intelligence and other things all play into the result. But this is only a forumwar where people want things nerfed that give them problems. It would be far more helpfull if people would point out things that are unbalanced in the army they play and not come over to the forums and go:
 "THIS ONE UNIT/OFFMAP IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MY DEFEAT AND I AM LEET, NERF."

You can´t imagine how much I would like to complain about airborne Strafe and Bombing run.

It's only risky if there's a good chance of failure.

Considering how gamesguy described it it had an enourmous chance of failure (I loose most of the times I try to duke it out with and atg and most other axis players can probably agree that they would not try a headon battle).

Infantry can't catch/keep up with the 50mm, and light vehicles/tanks are too susceptible to it.

They can still damage it and flank to kill.

IMO, the 50mm's main gun should get another slight range decrease, and a slightly higher ROF. Right now the thing is virtually a PaK on wheels; it's should lose a bit more of its firepower in order to make up for its high speed and mobility.

It still needs to be able to outrange allied tanks to be usefull and I still feel this is like the Nerf Pfaust thread where allies got pissed because they could not rush their armour to victory and glory, you do not see axis doing that a lot and that is because it usually is a suizide mission.