Wehrmacht Stug needs a big buff & massive love

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[Smokaz]

I think the Stug needs to be looked at. Even if people argue that its a "assault gun" this thing was always used in vcoh as a cheap tank destroyer standing up to units from the tank depot (m10, sherman).

With the armor buffs and the capabilities of the t17, staghound and the m18 the stug looks, feels and performs really crap.

Even a vet 3 stug with long barrels falls easy prey to m18s on its own, I wasnt surprised at it circled me I was just thinking "What did I want this Stug for anyways? I've done nothing but baby it over 4-5 games, it costs me attention, it fails to penetrate sometimes and its veterancy is utter dogshit. Die you piece of shit, you only take up fuel for a ostwind which can pelt light armor and also kill infantry."

1) Pricing

Even though 150 fuel seems low, the stug is not worth it. A ostwind or a p4 can easily get a lot of infantry kills even if they dont kill light vehicles or armor, but this is next to impossible to get on a stug because of the lack of a turret to snipe around corners, the short range on its gun and the fact that the stug has to make its presence obvious to engage its intended targets. Because it cant track tanks, enemy tanks usually just move away from the stug sometimes before it can even get a hit in and send a 57mm that deals great damage to the low health stug when it penetrates. Its turn rate is also abysmal making it a easy prey for both the m10 and the m18 if you attempt to use it on its own. Price decrease should be noteworthy, as the Stug unless drastically changed cannot perform any AT task against anything on its own if both tanks decide to pursue the engagement.

Geschutz is the other "fuel only" wehrmacht tank destroyer priced higher yet people are getting geschutzwagons and not stugs because a supported geschutzwagon can actually perform its task. It doesnt need skirts to engage at short range or take hits back because it outranges most armor, its repair is comparable and fielding a stug without skirts is a death sentence for the stug anyways because of the range the stug engages at.

You'd think that successful use of the non-doctrinal tank destroyer would net a leaderboard selection of vetted stugs much larger than geschutzwagens since they are terror only, but you find only 3 more vetted stugs (10+ xp) in the unit leaderboards than you find geschutzwagons.

Conclusion: Is the Stug worth it? No, its not. It's price could easily be argued to go down because on its own it can do nothing. Chip off 50 manpower and 25 fuel to make this the cheapest and worst-performing tank destroyer of them all. Or change the unit to be worth its price, because currently you get another piece of supporting at for 150 fuel that doesnt have the range to truly be a supporting unit or the turret/maneuverability to be used at the front.

2) Pop
Pop isnt really a problem with this unit, but I'd argue that for 8 pop you get a upgunned puma that solves any task better than the stug for lower fuel and munition cost. Another fact that leads me to the conclusion that the stug is pathetic.

3) Penetration

Seeing your stug weapon bounce on a sherman plain sucks considering the work it is to get the stug into position and the easy of which allied armor gets away. There's no ambush, upgun or ap rounds available to the Stug. It's penetration really isnt that great, I remember trying to zerg a firefly with my stug because the firefly player was stupid enough (in my eyes) to get close to my stug and 2 shots from the stug on the firefly failed to penetrate before a shrek grenadier killed it. I wish there was some way to make the Stug penetrate better for a short duration so that you at the very least when somebody tries to engage and kill your stug can punish him by activating some kind of cooldown ability that lets the stug stand its ground even for a short time against the epiphany of vehicles that can simply penetrate it from the front or just circle it taking no damage from the stug in return.

4) The hierarchy of fuel-based tank destroyers

As far as fuel-based tank destroyers goes, its hard to think of anything that is better at its job than the current m18. Cloak offensively right before your first shot, the cloak in general and its weird penetration against certain targets (hetzer) makes me believe that this is the best one. The hetzer is also awesome, though a lot more expensive than the stug/marder/hetzer/m10/m18. It also comes with the doctrine that buffs it. Show me the doctrine that makes the short range, no cloak, low health stug awesome at its job. Blitz? Barrels doesnt stop m18s from outranging the stug. At any rate I think that the range of the marder stops it from being at the bottom of the heap which I delegate to the Stug. Marder mainly looks so bad because of the 50mm HT which I do not class as a fuel-based tank destroyer because of its armor type and munition cost.

5) Range / 1st Shot

All of the other tank destroyers outrange their intended targets more or less or have abiltiies that secure them the first shot. (Hetzer/Stug) The Stug has neither of these. It puts it at a severe disadvantage trying to fight vehicles/armor that it can't really secure itself the first shot or effectively slug it out at range.

6) Veterancy

Vet 1 Received Damage 0.9
Vet 2 Penetration 1.1, Accuracy 1.15, Received Damage 0.85
Vet 3 Received Penetration 0.8, Vehicle Cover+*

The veterancy of the stug isn't very well thought out. First of all, received damage modifiers are not very good on low health units. It attempts to help out a weaknesses of the tank while optimal veterancy in my opinion (and in AMPM's) improves strong points of the unit not half-heartedily tries to flatten out glaring weaknesses of the tank which it cant do. The airborne, infantry and armor doctrine all have penetration buffs that are so large that even a vet 3 stug is going to get penetrated far too much for its low health to cope.  The veterancy either has to much larger or different to help make stugs viable.

There's more than enough examples of much more powerful veterancy for much better units than the stug, so I dont understand why the stug needs to have such piss-poor veterancy when its already hard to use and fielded by very few players.

Hellcat gets great veterancy, less received accuracy (most powerful veterancy modifier in the game), better penetration, better range (another one of the most power modifiers in the game) and more damage on its already high-damage shots.

A comparable veterancy to improve the stug to a Hellcat/Hetzer level for the stug could look like this, although the modifers look power remember that the base platform is much worse:

Vet 1 - Received Accuracy 0.80 (its a low profile target that has to get close)
Vet 2 - +5 Range, 1.2 Penetration, Received Damage 0.80
Vet 3 - Speed 1.2, Reload 0.8

+++


What do the rest of the community feel about the stug? One solution I saw was making the stug a doctrinal unit, like the geschutzwagon and t17 was. Change it to fit within this doctrine. Since the STUH on the same chassis already is a blitz unit, I thought this would be a great way to solve it. Buff the stug to solve the problems of the unit but it make it a blitz-only unit.

[AmPM]

Even though the STuG is technically an Assault Gun, at this point in the war they were designed for and used as tank destroyers.

I've been in favor of raising their range from 40 to 45 to see if that helps at all. Their traditional advantage of heavy front armor is no longer existent in a world without Sherman tanks. It gets a damage bonus vs Sherman hulls, but again, those are missing. What doctrine abilities actually support them? HEAT Rounds, Improved Barrels, German Steel, Fatherland Defense I think is 25% hp to everything.

There are a lot of doctrines in the Axis builds that buff combination's of units, but they are generally minor buffs with more downsides than upsides. But this is more of a problem with doctrines that really are not cohesive in any way and that don't really enhance themselves by abilities that work together.

This is another problem with the STuG

StuG (1.3)
-Vet1 Received Damage 0.9
-Vet2 Penetration 1.1, Accuracy 1.15, Received Damage 0.85
-Vet3 Received Penetration 0.8, Vehicle Cover+*

Remove it damage reduction, increase damage at vet 1, range at vet 2, give it a real set of vet 3 bonuses.

[GeneralGlacko]

Your so right about the Geschuwagen. I mean if it was better at splash damage like the p4, it might be worth it, but i've replaced most of my stugs now with geschu mostly because of its performance vs infantry which is most cases if what if goes up against, only the hmg saves it and that only barely suppresses them while theyre popping shots at you and circle strafing.

[Smokaz]

Bump, updated main gripe/post.

[AmPM]

What I would do with the STuG.

+5 Base range on its main gun.

Redo veteran bonuses in order to make it an efficient AT platform. Increase Penetration, damage, accuracy. I would stay away from Speed bonuses, they are relatively useless on units without high dodge rates. Again, decrease in accuracy really does not benefit it either vs its primary predator, RRs and highly accurate ATGs.

So to summarize, Range to 45, Vet table to look more like:

StuG (1.3)
-Vet1 Increased Damage 1.15
-Vet2 Penetration 1.1, Accuracy 1.15, Increased Range 1.15
-Vet3 Increased Damage 1.15, Increased Penetration 1.2

Then remove the stupid infantry buffs from Blitzkrieg, replace them with more armor buffs. Make Blitz the Axis armor doc, Defensive the Support weapon doc, and Terror the Infantry doctrine.

[Illegal_Carrot]

I don't think it should become Blitz only, but I do agree that it needs a major buff. Extra range will help, but I'd also like to see faster rotation, less received penetration, or even a slightly higher RoF.

[Tymathee]

Then remove the stupid infantry buffs from Blitzkrieg, replace them with more armor buffs. Make Blitz the Axis armor doc, Defensive the Support weapon doc, and Terror the Infantry doctrine.

i kinda agree there. never understood why terror gets so many support buffs.

[Pak88mm]

awful fucking unit. awful! im surprised you had a vet 3 one. i just bought one for shits and giggles and see how can i pair it with a puma 50mm

[Falcon333]

I used to atleast be able to do something with StuGs, now they don't even cut the simplest of tasks.
I would certainly like a range increase.

[bbsmith]

All this Stug bashing makes me sad  .

[jackmccrack]

Needs more armor and more accuracy!

[Malevolence]

Give it a fucking turn rate buff for vet, 5 more range, done.

[AmPM]

The problem with a turn rate bug is it then removes what should be its real weakness, getting circled.

Range prevents it from just getting outranged by its prey constantly.

[Demon767]

i believe the stug is worth it, Shermans even if they pentrate do so little damage to it i was so suprised, my Stug Killed 1 sherman, 2 m18s and 3 T17s in 1 game, it only lost when it fell pray to 1 atg round, took nearly all of my stugs HP down, That what needs to be looked at. i dont know about you but seriously, i was so surpsied how well it took on Vet 2 shermans and M18's and T17's abd people were worried how it performed.

just my 2 australian cents.

[AmPM]

Try that vs people that know how to use their M18. I will 2 shot your STuG.

[CrazyWR]

assuming it penetrates.

[AmPM]

Oh it'll penetrate =) I try to wait for side shots.

Then again, now I have AP rounds, so it doesn't matter either way.

[Demon767]

i dont have to worry about how people use there M18s.

[RikiRude]

Oh it'll penetrate =) I try to wait for side shots.

Then again, now I have AP rounds, so it doesn't matter either way.

I had a M-18 vs stug the other day. first shot out of cloak hit, it then took me 5 shots to kill the stug because they kept bouncing, thankfully i have the armor buff that makes m18/m10/shermans faster and i was able to get behind of the stug and finish it off. other wise im sure it could of backed up faster then i was able to get behind of it.

[Pak88mm]

the main issue has been and always will be relic borking the stugs targeting.

1. the main guns power is just crud
2. the main issue it take far too long to aquire targets
3. awful anti infantry

2 really is the main issue. relic borked this so bad that it killed the wehr T3 in an instant. Players now had to shoot straight T4 or lock in into T2 to have any chance against allied armor. Seems like we still face that same issue now with the stug. I barely see anyone use it and honestly the pumas 50mm is better since it will actually hit light armor and also survive attacks from em. On the other hand the stug wont be able to fire at moving targets will showing its flanks. Even if it does fire it will miss more than not will getting zerged.