Armour doc too easy to counter.

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[Ununoctium]

The only thing that gets buffed is armour.
the only way it gets buffed is vs armour,
so essentially use very little armour and your AT does the same damage as usual.

Its practically playing with a vanilla army right now. apart from T17's and the T1's which are equal to any other T1.

[Unkn0wn]

We intend on reworking doctrines, so don't worry there'll be some changes made.

[Freek]

I don't really get Uno's argument here... not using armor in the armor doc results in vanilla army.. so?

[Ununoctium]

I don't really get Uno's argument here... not using armor in the armor doc results in vanilla army.. so?

let me restate that:
I don't really get Uno's argument here... using armor in the armor doc results in vanilla army.. so?


The big thing here is that armour doc needs turret rotation.
It's not a question, our turrets cannot track most of our micro.
replace the 10% less reload with 25% faster turret rotation (tanks, vehicles, and 50.cals) with make everyone happy. it does not increase damage out put but removes the m10 misfiring bug and allows you to aggressively use tanks and vehicles like you must in order to use them effectively.

[VERTIGGO]

Oh my God.

Now we use "armor doc doesn't have any infantry buffs" to make a case for 25% turret speed? For the record, every single allied tank already has a faster turret speed than it's counterpart. In fact, many are infinitely so, since the Allies don't have to deal with turretless tanks.

First of all, allied armor is already bleeding at the ears with stackable tank buffs, and secondly, 25% is a pretty serious change to anything. I believe that's the biggest reason the mod gets unwieldy sometimes; all of these 25-35% buffs across the board for different things makes for exponential balance issues.

[LuAn]

Luftwaffe/Commandos doesnt get any Vehicle Buffs!
What now? 

P.s.: Funny stuff ey, however OT: I think the argument, that due to the lack of buffs on a certain unit I ask for another buff is kinda strange.
+1 for Vertiggo

[Ununoctium]

armours stacking buffs total the following:
1. vehicles take 10% less damge
2. tanks gain 15% penetration and 15% speed and 10% reload (or replaced with turret rotation).
T4: 15% less reload 15% more damage for a total of:
3 T2 + 1 T4 250pp for : 15% damage 15% penetration 15% speed 25% reload. on sherman, m10, m18.


luftwaffe buffs:
15% health 10% accuracy
15% ambush bonus
15% Lt bopnus
T4: either 15% damage range supression or 20% accuracy, 15% dmge 25% less supression.

2 T3 + 1 T4 250pp for: 45% damage 15% range 10% accuracy 15% suppression OR 45% damage 30% accuracy 25% less supression. on fallshimjaeger and luftwaffe infantry and fallshrim tankbuster.

[Mgallun74]

maybe we should put the doct back to the way they were when i first started here... u had to pick a line and work down to the t4..

or, maybe redo the entire doct system.. right now, there is way too many buffs.. 45per more damage?? thats rather insane. so if the falls carry shks or fg42s they could possible deal 45per more damage??  OP!

[Sixpack]

armours stacking buffs total the following:
1. vehicles take 10% less damge
2. tanks gain 15% penetration and 15% speed and 10% reload (or replaced with turret rotation).
T4: 15% less reload 15% more damage for a total of:
3 T2 + 1 T4 250pp for : 15% damage 15% penetration 15% speed 25% reload. on sherman, m10, m18.


luftwaffe buffs:
15% health 10% accuracy
15% ambush bonus
15% Lt bopnus
T4: either 15% damage range supression or 20% accuracy, 15% dmge 25% less supression.

2 T3 + 1 T4 250pp for: 45% damage 15% range 10% accuracy 15% suppression OR 45% damage 30% accuracy 25% less supression. on fallshimjaeger and luftwaffe infantry and fallshrim tankbuster.

Why are you comparing an armour doctrine with an infantry doctrine?

[Ununoctium]

well he said compare to a doctrine that only buffs infantry so i did.

the amount of inf you can field also greatly surpasses armour in terms of damage output.

plus luftwaffe doctrine get 50mm which counters all of armour co anyways.

[VERTIGGO]

Honestly I don't think he said "compare a doctrine that buffs infantry", I think he was being sarcastic about the idea of buffing luftwaffe armor.

I also agree, that stacking damage up to 45% is ridiculous. The issue is not that it's making a weak unit viable, but that it creates far too much disparity between T1 players and T4 players.

[EliteGren]

You know that Fortress Europe doesnt work on infantry right? And that the fall officer only gives half the bonuses an LT does, so around 7,5%.
Ambush only works for the first salvo now.
Also Fallschirmtankbusters cant get the ambush bonus anymore at all - plus you cant get them with the Fallschirmofficer AND Kurts finest.

[LuAn]

Thanks elitegren for pointing that out.
And infight recloaking is also gone.

This was a very distorted comparison using wrong information which gives people the wrong impression about those numbers.
And yes i was being sarcastic.

However why did you ignore the commandos doctrine? What stacking "number" buffs do they get?
By the way: what about those "non-number" doctrine unlocks?

[VERTIGGO]

You know that Fortress Europe doesnt work on infantry right? And that the fall officer only gives half the bonuses an LT does, so around 7,5%.
Ambush only works for the first salvo now.
Also Fallschirmtankbusters cant get the ambush bonus anymore at all - plus you cant get them with the Fallschirmofficer AND Kurts finest.

Bravo EG! Excellent defense.

[NightRain]

Armor doctorine needs buffs to make it ARMORED doctorine, It needs its buffs for all tanks. They need to be effective in armored combats and otherwise armored. Their only weakness is lack of infantry buffs.

Armored unit could use some better buffs than tiny increases. Better Turret Rotation allows unit to circlestrafe other tanks (stugs, Hetzers, Jagdpanther and KT) effectively since the Turret keeps up with its main hull. This thing won't be OP since all tanks need their support. Armored units should posses AP Rounds and maybe a new Tank Destroyer besides the Pershing? Who knows, I don't at least. M10, Hellcat M18 and Sherman are the only tanks that get these bonuses.

[Ununoctium]

You know that Fortress Europe doesnt work on infantry right? And that the fall officer only gives half the bonuses an LT does, so around 7,5%.
Ambush only works for the first salvo now.
Also Fallschirmtankbusters cant get the ambush bonus anymore at all - plus you cant get them with the Fallschirmofficer AND Kurts finest.

Bravo EG! Excellent defense.

I was too lazy to find the fixes so i post something wrong and wait for  someone to correct it 

since armour co gets no inf buffs and only regular riflemen they just get eaten alive. and with the 9 million ways to kill tanks from far away. Pak, shreck, geshitz, 50mm, panther, marder, improved barells, allied armour cant protect the infantry and they cant protect the armour. The only counter to axis long ranging is AT guns or mass rushing. one is too slow, a moving at gun can be shot and the tank can back off before it sets up aims and fires.

I don't like resorting to vehicle spam but there really is no other way to reach the damn AT units in one piece. rifles suck and allied armor has no health.

And the pershing is null and void now. it can never kill its worth in manpower and provides no area denial since no axis fears it.

[RikiRude]

Armor needs some T2 + T3 light vehicle buffs i think so if you want, you can make your armor company dedicated to light vehicles. Right now you have two T1s that effect vehicles and callig it in on T2 which effects everything. And NGV which effects everything. Everything else is pretty much only effecting m10s, shermans, m18s, and pershing.

Also I must say my favorite T2 so far is the increased speed.

And another thing, shoot and scoot should be quicker shooting, not faster reload. Whatever you have to change that makes it take less time to get the initial shot off quicker would be awesome, so your units can pop out of cover get a quick shot then pull back. And with the long range AT choices of the axis it does make armor difficult, the only way to compete with marders and getzwagons is by having 57s  with jeeps with the T1 ability. Though it sucks because 1 shot from either of those will kill your jeep, i wish they still had the double armor =( but i think that might make it more worthy of a T2 then a T1, and I don't think anyone would want to chose that T2 over other T2s.

[CafeMilani]

Oh my God.

[Demon767]

No axis fears it?

How can you justify that? when your the only person to have a pershing atm, maybe you just suck at using it n the axis just roll over ya.

[jackmccrack]

Smokaz and I lost to T17 + Quads + M18s.

It's not the doctrine but rather how you use it.