[ALL FACTIONS] The balance of vehicle disabling between the 4 factions

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[Smokaz]

Greetings most exalted members of the EIRR community.

Hopefully this thread will be a great success since I’ve put some serious work into making it as blunt, compressed and understandable/narrow as possible.

The premise of this thread is that I think the current vehicle disablement between the four factions needs a review, based on a comparison I have done between them.

Some initial impressions I had before I went indepth to compare:
- Allies have far superior vehicle disablement in total as a side
- Americans have the greatest amount of options with armor being king of this
- Brits have it better than any axis faction, but lacks severely in mines
- PE has good options in theory
- Wehr severely lacks options

I define VC abilities as upgrades or weapons capable of reliably dealing engine damage to a unit with a otherwise capable critical table or otherwise severely affecting its mobility/ability to shoot.

I have not included any outlook on the implications of a VD  being doctrinal, for the simplicity of the discussion. I also included field defences to compare what the different factions get in terms of tank stopping stuff.


-------------------------

[American VD]

- Engineer mines
-- Two mines for 3 pop and 1 infantry availability, almost guaranteed engine damage. Does decent damage to the tank as well. If you dont get a flamer, these guys can fully crew a weapon or pick up stuff.

- Rifles
-- Stickies:  Awesome range at vet 2, 60 munitions, comes on a flexible unit, phases through buildings, almost guaranteed engine damage. Comes with decent damage.

- Armor T17
--Stun: Very useful, fairly expensive, powerful in combos. Hard to avoid,  comes on a multipurpose unit. No damage. Short duration.

- M18 Hawkins mine
-- Cheap,  slow to be placed, on a mobile platform. Just as good as the volk mine, on a more pop-expensive platform. Locks a tank into receiving at fire for a long duration.

- M8 mine
-- Mobile platform, is placed fast, deals great damage, reliably deals engine damage. Big splash.

- Field defenses: Engineers get tank traps, infantry gets this for their rifles as well, constructs them faster. Very useful.

[British VD]

- Bren MMG Button
-- Fast mobile platform, hard to avoid, Good duration, complete disablement. Invulnerable to small arms, resistant to paks. Is able to AP round the same target that it is buttoning.  (Deadly)

- Tommy bren button
-- Comes on a exellent anti infantry squad, good duration (dependant on squad health), resilient unit, resistant to AT, lack of forced button because its a infantry squad and cant close a distance to a tank moving away (like the mmg)

- British mine options: Severely underpowered, should be a separate upgrade on piat squads to avoid it costing so much pop to field mines. Minelayers can crew a weapon fully however and still lay mines.

- British field defenses:  Need tanktraps of some form.

[Wehrmacht VD]

- Mines
-- 1/3 wehrmacht doctrines can field double mines, if you are not getting a currently risky flamer (poof) you cant fully recrew a weapon with this squad, you pay 2 infantry availability for each squad

- Faust
-- Hopelessily low damage, extremely unreliable disablement, modifiers that make it testiclesuck  damage-wise against a lot of targets, good range, vulnerable to units ducking behind buildings

- Volk tanktrap mine
-- Exellent effect and pricing all over, but immobile. Demands volks to be fielded for every 2 uses at 5 pop. The volk platform is good but is decisively limiting choices in a faction with so many different infantry units. A real tough one to comment on.

- Field Defences: Pioneers get tanktraps.

[PE VD]

- Munition halftrack mines
-- Good damage, reliable disablement. Good splash. Comes on a pop-efficient unit thats fairly expensive as a minelayer and cant do any combat or recrew. Awards a bonus that fielding multiple of does not increase. Cannot pick up weapons.
- Luftwaffle mines: Comes on a cheap combat unit, if it gives two i’d say its a very good choice sadly rendering the mun ht less wanted.
- Flowerbombs: No munition cost mines, alot of them. Decent critical tables based on what Mysthalin commented.
- SE ”Mines from the sky”: flexible, no munition cost, dangerous to both infantry and tanks
- Teller mines: Comes on a flexible unit, takes long time to dig, most expensive mine, deals great damage and can even give engine destroyed

- ATHT
-- Treadbreaker is not guaranteed against pershings, range is good, recharge is very long, basic combat ability of the unit without focus fire is meh, fairly expensive upgrades and unit

- PE Field defences:  1/3 doctrines can build tank traps, these are superior to the other factions tanktraps because they cannot be crushed

- Faust
-- Suffers from the same problems of the wehrmacht faust and has the same advantages

----------------------------------------------------------

Some conclusions I have drawn from this and seek to have examined by my fellow chimps:

- PE and americans both have the best options of their sides both doctrinally and nondoctrinally
-- Summing up what makes them best: mobility, flexibility and superior across-the-board options (SE tank traps, TH teller mine)
- British and Wehr lack VD options in each their way
-- Brits have great mobile VD on flexible units, but their mine and tanktrap options are atrocious
-- Wehr has average mine options and normal tank trap options, but their mobile VD is non-existant

Things I personally would like to see discussed based on this:

- Possibility of moving volk mine to pios
- Improval of the faust to a mobile VD option
- Adding of british tank traps
- Improvement of the british mine laying capability
- Improvement of the PE ATHT treadbreaker recharge
 
Please provide input on the balance issues being presented in this thread if this interests you.

[GeneralGlacko]

Lower the cooldown on the faust and lower the price on tb seeing as how noone can really use them nowadays to their fullest potential.

[BigDick]

wehr:
to make fausts sticky similar would make them still far less good because everyone who sees grens knows that they can not have a sticky/faust

and volks can not be upgraded with bars or lmg to be much more than recrew stuff

brit:

button is probably way to powerful for a tommy like squad with such a strong lmg like the bren (dureation could go down a bit)

but yes the mines should be separate from this expensive demo charge upgrade

pe:

treadbreaker is to expensive and has to low range

could be improved by range (special unit everyone who sees one knows that it can damage the engine other than on stickys of mainline infantry)
the upgrade for damage engine (95mun) is way to expensive for this special unit
or its penetration against light armor could be raised that it has a role even when its treadbreaker option is not available

[Baine]

If brits now also get mines easy, do PE get manpacked HMGs, Mortars and PAKs?

To be fair a 70 (or more) muni upgrade for 1 mine (or 2?) is a bit harsh. Especially since they can't be upgraded with Piats anymore. But i agree, you see Sappers more than Engineers/Pios probably, thus they should be restricted to 1 mine per squad.


We already had the super crit faust, so if we can get a reduced version of it, it will be definately a welcomed change.

wehr:
to make fausts sticky similar would make them still far less good because everyone who sees grens knows that they can not have a sticky/faust

and volks can not be upgraded with bars or lmg to be much more than recrew stuff

yeah i agree it's bullshit! when axis players see my m8's they know it doesnt have stun!! and when they see my rangers they know it doesn't have stickies.

He was talking about a comparison between axis and allies mainline infantry. Companies with grens only will have troubles, but i agree, it is their decision to have grens only.



---Killer344: Double post.

[Mysthalin]

Sorry smoke, you know how it is outside our little world where everybody is polite and drinks tea while talking politics and reffering to each other 'sir' .

At any rate, I will say what I said before :

If faust were given sticky-like critical tables again, make it act the same way as the sticky - same range, with a range bonus at vet 2 .

[EliteGren]

Replace fausts with Hohlhaftladung maybe?
Same as sticky, shorter range and less damage than a sticky but high chance for a critical.
Kinda like the Tankdestroyer AT grenade T3.

Helpfull addition by Draken:

Hohlhaftladung:

It's a bomb device that is put directly onto the tank and the explosion is directed into the tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv7Y5cNw_-Q

7:05

[Sach]

MMG bren buttoning and APing at the same time is wrong, not sure I agree with anything else.

It may be time to relook at the Pak, no move while cloaked and only 1 shot cloaked might have been too much.

[BigDick]

balance for mirror matches is imho not good

better would be give the faust slightly criticals for damaged engine in green and yellow health (not like it was before like immobilize, damage maingun..and less effective than sticky that is almost always damaged engine .. maybe 50% in yellow and 33% in green) and make fausts purchaseable on grens

and remove the damage modifiers against light armor of fausts

[Draken]

/Cleaned offtopic including my posts :p.

[wildsolus]

and make fausts purchaseable on grens

why? grens can buy shreks to defend themselves against armor...volks can't which is why they have fausts.

[Killer344]

Sorry smoke, you know how it is outside our little world where everybody is polite and drinks tea while talking politics and reffering to each other 'sir' .

You are not helping at all throwing stuff like this with that level of sarcasm tbh:

Man, it's not fair! US doesn't have a semi-elite non-doctrinal infantry to go with their mainline crap-fatry, unlike WM!

*Demands a ranger-like unit that's non-doctrinal and has access to either an RR or BAR package* - call it the marine. Oh, and I'll be sure to whine about it not having stickies every thread that comes up that mentions anything that engine damages infantry.

and try to keep on topic please.....

[BigDick]

and make fausts purchaseable on grens

why? grens can buy shreks to defend themselves against armor...volks can't which is why they have fausts.

to prevent tanks and light armor rushing and crushing into wehr infantry based anti infantry units because they have to fear to be get fausted and engine damaged?

btw: grens cannot purchase lmg and shrek anymore (just if you missed that) and actually shreck is useless for 140mun

[Tymathee]

Sorry smoke, you know how it is outside our little world where everybody is polite and drinks tea while talking politics and reffering to each other 'sir' .

You are not helping at all throwing stuff like this with that level of sarcasm tbh:

Man, it's not fair! US doesn't have a semi-elite non-doctrinal infantry to go with their mainline crap-fatry, unlike WM!

*Demands a ranger-like unit that's non-doctrinal and has access to either an RR or BAR package* - call it the marine. Oh, and I'll be sure to whine about it not having stickies every thread that comes up that mentions anything that engine damages infantry.

and try to keep on topic please.....

He is kind of on topic. Someone else brought that up, kinda unfaiar to single him out only.

Personally, I think all vehicles are balanced in their own way. The only reason why it seems the allies have the advantage is because the wehr would rather use tanks other their own light vehicles. Try Puma spam with normal and upgunned puma's, those things will rape allied light vehicles in no time, the upgun is also great at poppin allied tanks in the butt, and are better at it than the m8 and t17. It kinda goes like this with the factions and vehicles

Ami - More balanced, no one great thing
Wehr - Great tank, okay light vehicles
Brits - Tanks and LV's are more specialized and need most support
PE - Great light vehicles can build whole company around them.

i dont think you can really balance out each factions light vehicles too much without crippling what they do well. The ami's dont have good enough tanks to combat PE and Wehr (pe just needs to bring out a panther and its over in the tank battle) neither do the brits but both allied sides are good at crippling your tank so they can take it down, PE and Wehr have strong damage units and for those that say that the range on the LAHT sucks lol yea...play with stickies and tell me how much it sucks. I'll take a TB LAHT anyday over a rifle with stickies.

[Killer344]

Sorry smoke, you know how it is outside our little world where everybody is polite and drinks tea while talking politics and reffering to each other 'sir' .

You are not helping at all throwing stuff like this with that level of sarcasm tbh:

Man, it's not fair! US doesn't have a semi-elite non-doctrinal infantry to go with their mainline crap-fatry, unlike WM!

*Demands a ranger-like unit that's non-doctrinal and has access to either an RR or BAR package* - call it the marine. Oh, and I'll be sure to whine about it not having stickies every thread that comes up that mentions anything that engine damages infantry.

and try to keep on topic please.....

He is kind of on topic. Someone else brought that up, kinda unfaiar to single him out only.

Because... you didn't see the posts that me and Draken deleted?


and btw Tym, this is about VEHICLE DISABLERS, nothing else.

[wildsolus]

and make fausts purchaseable on grens

why? grens can buy shreks to defend themselves against armor...volks can't which is why they have fausts.

to prevent tanks and light armor rushing and crushing into wehr infantry based anti infantry units because they have to fear to be get fausted and engine damaged?

btw: grens cannot purchase lmg and shrek anymore (just if you missed that) and actually shreck is useless for 140mun

cannot purchase lmg and shrek??? where do I make mention of caring about that? grens can PURCHASE SHREKS and just because they got bumped up in price doesn't mean they are worthless. stick to cover, stay near a pak or follow a p4/panther around.

as for tanks running in and crushing infantry..... where are your paks?? and if you have a huge problem use blitz and storms. m10's worst nightmare is a pak + storms because with 1 shot from both it'll get a huge chunk of health taken off. with any other at support (or fausts from VOLKS, KCH) it'll die.

or spam volk mines near your defensive positions. carmageddon tanks can't squish much when they are stuck

[Dragon2008]

I agreeto smokaz's post down to the last letter. If this goes through then the faust would need a price increase to stop it getting spammed. It would also mean atleast the wehr have somekind of good VD to use and would deter most people from spamming LV's or TD's (tank destroyers). It wouldn't mean it would stop but would help towards been able to counter it with something no so expensive.

[BigDick]

to prevent tanks and light armor rushing and crushing into wehr infantry based anti infantry units because they have to fear to be get fausted and engine damaged?

btw: grens cannot purchase lmg and shrek anymore (just if you missed that) and actually shreck is useless for 140mun

cannot purchase lmg and shrek??? where do I make mention of caring about that? grens can PURCHASE SHREKS and just because they got bumped up in price doesn't mean they are worthless. stick to cover, stay near a pak or follow a p4/panther around.

i think you don't get what i'm/we are talking about. Stickys as something that is not visual on mainline infantry and will damage 99% the engine of light vehicles and tanks prevent you to rush your p4 or puma into rifleman for crushing them and for better accuracy and damage output

grens cannot buy an lmg and a shrek together anymore (even when they could you would know that this squad has a shrek)
and try to use your 140mun schreck grens as ai infantry just to make sure to be not rushed by m10 or rushed by light vehicles

as for tanks running in and crushing infantry..... where are your paks?? and if you have a huge problem use blitz and storms. m10's worst nightmare is a pak + storms because with 1 shot from both it'll get a huge chunk of health taken off. with any other at support (or fausts from VOLKS, KCH) it'll die.

are paks that mobile to keep them always with you (especially since you loose 1 or 2 shoots for moving because you have to uncloak them first to move them 1 meter into range)

with rifles you can run around the map and cap and almost no one will rush into you because you "could" have stickies and waste a repair kit or disable the tank/vehicle mobility

or spam volk mines near your defensive positions. carmageddon tanks can't squish much when they are stuck

wasn't it you who posted a replay on schindel and raged about backcaping? should the defense wehr become even more defensive to be backcapped because they need to sit somewhere (behind there paks and hmgs) with vehicle slow mines?

[LeoPhone]

id say give faust the t17 stun, and then up the price of it a bit.

and the brit mine can be bought seperately from the detect&demo uprade, but not together with piats. becouse then the mines can be spammed.

[Groundfire]

Yes, i agree that the faust should be buffed to usefullness with crit increases. (and damage increase for the t17)

However, a valid complaint should be recognized that Allied armor is far more fragile than Axis (wehr anyways) and giving Wehrmacht a Vehicle Disabler, with the damage potential of a sticky will reduce the use of Allied Tank destroyers (and the croc) to near zero usefullness.

Wehrmacht has no VDs for the fact that they have superior tanks, and that M10s need to rush in and get rear shots on these tanks for them to be usefull. (which is hard enough to do as is, so many just resort to crushing)

Hellcats get their ambush shot in, then are fausted to a damaged engine state, and are incapable of getting away afterwards.


Now, that doesnt mean that I dont think Wehrmacht needs a vehicle disabler, it certainly does, but if we give a sticky quality VD to wehr, Allied armor, which is offensive in nature for the most part will get blown apart before they reach their point of optimum usefullness.

If the Faust gets buffed, it certainly needs a price increase. It is unacceptable to let a buff like this slide with a wehrmact ability to put fausts on every volk without a significant muni sink. The last thing Allied armor needs is to be triple fausted during the middle of an assault.

You dont see every rifle running around with a sticky, even with the price decrease, and they are considerably easier to dodge than a faust, with it's longer range, and shorter wind up that you really have to look for to avoid.

It should be a deterrant, just like the sticky is.

PE have their ATHTs, which are pretty fucking good anyways. Treadbreaker is idiot proof, and your handicapping yourself if you dont have 2 of these in your army.

[Smokaz]

Damn right it has to go up in price if its buffed, the current munitions price is balanced for its current performance. Anything else would be downright silly. I dont think anyone is arguing that wehrmacht as a whole is bad or inferior in any way, but like the british have a lack of viable tanktrap/mine options, wehrmacht has a blatant weakness to close range use of tanks and light vehicles thats really obvious right now.

I wont get into the whole tank destroyer debate, I think the m10s and the m18s perform amiably with their range and possibility for AP rounds for armor even if the base vehicle is vulnerable to hand held at.

For wehr, alot of it boils down to fausts being horrible as a VD and volk mines the only other option being extremely dependant on being placed in a forward or otherwise strategically good position, while the other factions can move their VDs around to a much greater extent.