Does carabines make rifles stand up to terror grenadiers?

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[Smokaz]

Does carabines make rifles stand up to terror grenadiers?

Some people in EIRR seem to think that you need a lot of skill to play with infantry heavy terror. I really don't think you do. Vet 3 terror grenadiers can eat a pineapple directly on top of them without taking casualties, they come with lmgs that eat up rifles and medikits that leave them standing longer than anyone else.

Watch the start of this game. Puddings entire core gets wiped without causing causalties because he gets double teamed, and then terror infantry on their own pushes two players back at once allowing pudding to regroup.

I put forth the proposition that grenadier spam with terror is way too good. There's another 3v3 replay here just posted that shows the same type of infantry heavy terror companies  just rolling over infantry heavy american companies with their own infantry buffs:

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=12135.0

 I was playing the americans in that game, I knew what CAN counter grenadier/infantry heavy terror. But its much harder to counter it than to employ the tactic, since only snipers can counter it. Shermans get munched up at range, crocs get munched up close and generally employing vehicles close to terror shreks means insta raped. Long range means they have much more time to employ their AT.

You don't need more micro than popping the medikit and focus firing, and rifles simply dissapear. You can rambo them in there moving from cover to cover and still win, even with the "defensive" lmg.

Around 28:30 a 3-4 man vet 3 carabine squad charges a single vet 1 lmg guy, and gets chewed up. He's not even full health, and he still slaughters them. OP much?

Around 31:25 a vet 2 volk in yellow cover is outhealing the damage from two fullly manned vet 3 carabine rifles at medium/long range, with one of the squads actually flanking it. No zeal affecting the squad, just yellow cover, vet 2 and patch & n Run. Now imagine a grenadier squad with vet 3 sitting in yellow cover, with much more health and patch'n run, maybe zeal bonuses from being down to 2 man taking fire from two vet 3 carabine squads. Would you even notice it?

If you stack all the survivability increasers on terror grenadiers and infantry in general, they become monsters and although its not super mega OP its over the top right now.

http://www.filefront.com/14481121/Copy%20of%20terror%20grenadier%20pudding%20cannonball%20smokaz%20versusversances.rar

[Tymathee]

i agree. When a single schreck man can defeat a full health sherman, thats bogus. First shot missed, and i didn't get a chance to get the 2nd, very gay.

[CafeMilani]

Around 28:30 a 3-4 man vet 3 carabine squad charges a single vet 1 lmg guy, and gets chewed up. He's not even full health, and he still slaughters them. OP much?

http://www.filefront.com/14481121/Copy%20of%20terror%20grenadier%20pudding%20cannonball%20smokaz%20versusversances.rar

thats ok. same happens with my vet3 m1 carbines rifles. you just shouldnt rush a 1 man zeal lmg squad, no matter if its vet0 or vet3 imo. sherman and snipers help out pretty nicely.

[Smokaz]

Lets get the idea of shermans out of our heads immediatly - in any kind of cover or with zeal, shermans cant one shot grenadiers - it can barely hit them in green. Cover reduces damage/accuracy, fitness and zeal on top of this... sherman fails. If you are not one shotting them, medikits will heal up that damage and your sherman might have taken damage in the process.

Getting close means game over for the sherman because of abilities like IA, ferocity and zeal. Staying at range they cant hit or damage them properly and after a short while paks or geschutz opens up on them, forcing them back.

So that leaves snipers as the only counter. Everything then is reliant on your sniper being able to kill enough enough to

1) pay for himself
2) turn the tide for your rifles who are extremely outgunned by the grenadiers

What other companies are you completely at the mercy of a extremely frail unit to defeat?

[fallensoldier7]

I think one of the reasons for the super effectiveness of a Terror gren-spam company is that Terror has access to the Geschutz.  Geschutz can basically replace Paks, and at what price?  None at all really.  The Geschutz costs 400 mp and 200 fuel.  The Pak costs 380 mp and 120 munitions.  Since a typical Gren spam company wouldn't have very many tanks, the high fuel cost of a Geschutz doesn't matter at all.  An extra 20 mp for each Geschutz as opposed to a Pak is negligible as well.  The main thing is that by trading in your Paks for Geschutz, you gain a profit of 120 munitions.  That means you can upgrade a lot more grenadiers, making a gren spam company so much more potent.

One advantage of having a Geschutz as opposed to a Pak is that you can fire on the move, which means you can chase down those tanks that a Pak wouldn't be able to finish and you can run away if your Geschutz gets bumrushed.  The only disadvantages are a slightly longer reload time on the Geschutz (which is avoided by Rapid Fire), the inability to recrew a Geschutz, and the inability to cloak.  Good micro and unit usage can easily negate these disadvantages.

I thought about this last week and I made a Terror gren-spam company using Geschutz and shreks as the main AT.  The only game that I played (a 2v2 against 2 good players) was a win for me (I got 90+ kills, my teammate got about 40+).  I'm no micro God or anything, but if I can do that well against good players then players better than me would rape with a gren-spam company.

Edit: I kinda went on a long tangent in this post, but my main point was that maybe if the Geschutz were to be removed from the Terror Company (or made a doctrine unlock) then Terror gren-spam wouldn't be so easy (since at least 1 infantry buff would have to be sacrificed for access to Geschutzwagens, assuming the devs put the unlock in the right place on the tree).

[Smokaz]

The geschutz is a good observation, as the possibility to trade all paks for this is indeed indirectly affecting terror's ability to kit up their grenadiers.

It still doesnt resolve the fact that almost nothing in the game is a cost-effective counter to terror grenadiers in the game, barring the terror player not supporting his grenadiers.

[Ununoctium]

The geschutz is a good observation, as the possibility to trade all paks for this is indeed indirectly affecting terror's ability to kit up their grenadiers.

I hate geshutzes.
They are like more mobile marders, I'd say better than a 50mm really.

Otherwise 100% agree. Zeal should stop increasing after you lost 2 men. might nerf it a lot without completely nerfing it.

[CafeMilani]

almost all your grens had double lmgs. they are meant to own. on top of that zeal gives very nice buffs on 1 man squads.
its the only ability which makes axis infantry having an advantage for having only 4 men in a squad.

we need dps tables btw

[Smokaz]

The geschutz can also escape any infantry based AT like airborne or 57mms easily, attempts to charge and pursue with a vehicle gets you raped short range by terror shreks.

@ aloha

I only had 1 munitions advantage

[RikiRude]

Gren heavy terror companies are a nightmare to face. I'd like to see a slight nerf to it, because carbine rifles with allied grit and bravery and such should be able to hold up much better, I mean, they are using a T4! And any smart terror player will have 1 or 2 call ins just to deal with snipers, like 3-4 bike call ins.

[CrazyWR]

Yes, the 3 bike call-in is something every player relying on infantry should have in their company, like a minesweeper for a vehicle heavy company.  Is it possible to counter as Brits?  Anyone that is good with brits able to comment?

[Sharpshooter44]

All depends on what you are using CrazyWR, I'd say commando doctrine buffed tommies with a bren and LT might be able to take down a single LMG squad..

otherwise...... mmmm being creative maybe...uhh nevermind im to tired to think of anything at the moment, i'll post some other things when I am not so tired 

[DasNoob]

carabines in their current form are retardedly OP.  The doctrine selection also seems to corrupt players skills turning them into blob factories.

[Mysthalin]

Brits are the only thing that can effectively deal with terror gren spam, in the form of recon tommy spam.

However, is it good that we need 1 SPECIFIC company build-up to be able to beat a generalist build from wehrmacht?

I think not.

[Speigass]

Acctually one of the best counters to terror grens is recon section spam of RCA with increased vision and range. Esspecially if recons are vetted and receive fast cooldown on marksman ability.

You can see them, you can shoot, you can kite them. Cover your recons with firefly have descent teammates and you are close to win. (tactics employed by infamous Mysthalin)

[Mysthalin]

TBH, speigie, that company doesn't even need a comptetent teammate to win.. not in a 2v2, anyway .

[Computer991]

It's not that op...maybe i've never used it to its full extent but from my point of view its not that bad i've been beat serveral times by carbine rifle spam
your talking about a guy with what 80HP?
1 Sniper/Recon section and your good..


And das noob is right, learn not to use vanilla rifles THEY ARNT that good...

Seriously a riflesquad with carbine rifles shouldn't beat a LMG with doctrine upgrades your talking about investing roughly 150 munitions into a 4 man squad.

[Mysthalin]

1 sniper gets destroyed by 3x Bikes for 270 MP, 15 FU. Brits have it better, since the recon tommy section won't die instantly to said 3 bikes.

Carbines is a freaking T4, combined with allied grit, a T3, you STILL lose to a single LMG grenadier with zeal (T2).
How is that balanced, computer?

With zeal, that last grenadier gets these bonuses :

Received Damage x 0.95
Received Suppression x 0.85
Weapon Accuracy x 1.15
Maximum Health + 10

Weapon Accuracy x 1.15
Received Damage x 0.95
Received Suppression x 0.75
Health Regeneration + 9.6/min
Weapon Cooldown x 0.75

Suppression = 0
Received Damage x 0.9
Weapon Accuracy x 1.25
Received Suppression x 0.75
Weapon Cooldown x 0.25
Weapon Reload x 0.75


Meaning that :
It's a total of 90 base health.
0.81 recieved damage ( 111 "real" health).
65 percent more accuracy.
0.48 recieved suppresion modifier.
0.18 cooldown modifier(LMGs become with 0.1 second cooldown or such).
0.75 reload modifier.
And if the grenadiers were pinned, when only the last guy remains, he instantly pops back up to his feet.

[CafeMilani]

its t3 worthy..

but srsly, this doesnt happen that often.

[Computer991]

Mysthalin a well defended sniper wont die to 3 bikes...I once had a 5 jeep rush on my sniper...1 pak + 1 shrek = no more bikes


Because mysthalin they are still riflemen...RIFLEMEN remember
the day that the fodder unit of the allied army because a raping pwanage machine is the day this game is too imba to play

anyway riflemen cost 190, while grens cost 240

He dies so easily seriously i dont see why everyone is complaining I rarely ever get vet 2 grens since they die so easily(I always keep the 1 man squad on field)

And i doubt most players would keep a vet 3 1 man shrek squad /LMG out like that...


I say just give the allies back their Fire Support Teams and maybe it wouldn't be such a problem.