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Author Topic: [ALL] Remove Off-Map Artillery  (Read 9090 times)
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2009, 04:32:03 am »

Please refrain from using the toulmin method of arguing, as can be seen in the rules and guidelines. I am forced to use it myself now, which I am sorry for.

I am not alluding to solely 2v2 maps - it can happen on any map, and this situation is actually one I experienced on abbeville - not the smallest of 3v3s. It being the very start of the war, there was litelarly nothing for our team to do - we had infantry players, but no howitzers unlocked yet. Do note that the axis did have nebelwerfers, which disallowed us from using the same kind of blob-push.

In that game I just played, you can witness 2(!) mortar saturation offmaps being needed to kill 1(!) mortar crew. If that's "borking the begining of the game", then let's remove jeeps and bikes too - two of them would achieve roughly the same effect over a mortar crew in a timescale of 1 minute(if at long range).

No, it is NOT an issue with fire-up - fire up has never been an issue, and is far less so with the severe speed and fire rate debuff once the ability is used. It is an issue with a blob of anti-everything being able to destroy anything, except artilery.

You'd run over 2-4 RR squads with a P4? Good luck with that. About the same effect as trying to run over 2 shrek squads with a sherman - complete ahnialation of your tank. I can name quite a few axis abilities that disable tanks - mines, treadbreaker, volks mines, panzer fear, etc.

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mortars, mgs, and whatever else you have tactically...
And thus we come back to another issue no artilery would cause - support spam. Both support spam and infantry blobs are problems that severely impair gameplay. Both of them are removed via having artilery in the game.

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how did they get that kind of foothold in the first place?
Set up MGs and paks in a straight line, put the mortars behind it, begin destroying the allied front line, watch them burn on your support weapon line, push up as they retreat - rinse and repeat. A staple wehrmacht start-war strategy. Or it's allied attack, as crazy said.

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do you honestly think a garrisoned or 'in cover' mg shouldnt be able rip to shreds any infantry coming towards its arc of fire?
Do you honestly think that there should be absolutely no counter to an HMG in a building and a pak supporting it?
I never once said that an in cover MG shouldn't kill any infantry that comes into it's arc of fire.
Have in mind, good players engaging in support spam usually set up an HMG behind their first HMG to negate fire-up units with grenades. I heard that works wonders against flanking riflemen, too.

You are litelarly implying that artilery ALWAYS kills well microed units of awesome players. Blobs are NOT a form of good micro or good play.
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IIPraeToriaNII Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 121


« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2009, 04:41:27 am »

Reduce offmaps in numbers slightly more and we are fine. But no offmaps is a no go.
As stated before there will be situations were only offmaps will help progressing in a battle.
You are talking about decadent offmap usage for every little thing, when people get outplayed.

Just because of those events doesn't mean that offmaps in general should be removed.

if your talking about me.....NO
 
i said
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artillery should minimally SUPPLEMENT, not be a PRIMARY role in eliminating opposition in this STYLE and SIZE of gameplay.
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thus AIDING in allowing you to retake that 'stronghold', not overwhelmingly blowing them to piss shit cause they beat you to the punch....
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artillery insta-pwning a vet 3 squad?  just take 2 seconds to think about it...

you know how long it took you to get that 100xp on that infantry squad....
and for it to get insta-owned by an artillery unit just doesnt make any sense.....

i came here for an advanced gameplay mod, not for vcoh-"playstyles"/grieferstyles to be used with impunity against superior players...
i vote for (as if it counts lol) a reduction of off maps and on map artillery units, as well as a reduction of their effectiveness, particularly for garrisoned and covered units...

but the drift on "precision strike" is just retarded, lol...

just my opinion...
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fuck off...
CrazyWR Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3616


« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2009, 04:44:34 am »

The chances of a vet3 infantry unit getting instagibbed by offmap arty is very slim...you'd have to get incredibly unlucky with the drift(because I assume you'd have the micro to avoid the smoke), AND have all your guys bunched up(which is also highly unlikely)...
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1. New tactics? it's like JAWS, first one in the water dies

RCA-land where shells fall like raindrops and the Captain is an invincible god
IIPraeToriaNII Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 121


« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2009, 05:14:39 am »

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Please refrain from using the toulmin method of arguing
Stephen Edelston Toulmin (born 25 March 1922) is a British philosopher, author, and educator. Influenced by the Austrian born British philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, Toulmin devoted his works to the analysis of moral reasoning. Throughout his writings, he seeks to develop practical arguments which can be used effectively in evaluating the ethics behind moral issues. His works were later found useful in the field of rhetoric for analyzing rhetorical arguments. The Toulmin Model of Argumentation, a diagram containing six interrelated components used for analyzing arguments, was considered his most influential work, particularly in the field of rhetoric and communication, and in computer science.

why? this isnt the balance forum...

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It being the very start of the war, there was litelarly nothing for our team to do - we had infantry players, but no howitzers unlocked yet. Do note that the axis did have nebelwerfers, which disallowed us from using the same kind of blob-push.
why do howitzers need to be unlocked to competently compete? how do nebels stop you from using a blob, why would you use a blob, abb is frickin huge, theres no way 3 players can meaningfully create a doomfort along the entire width of that map that 3 players cant easily overcome in one spot...

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In that game I just played, you can witness 2(!) mortar saturation offmaps being needed to kill 1(!) mortar crew.

how about microing 1 or 2 mortars to kill the problematic mortar that apparently stopped 3 players advancing??? unless the first call ins werent fitting....???totaly not understandable....

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If that's "borking the begining of the game", then let's remove jeeps and bikes too

wtf do bikes and jeeps have anything to do with anything here?

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If that's "borking the begining of the game"
the game i posted...maybe you need to watch it...i did.

fire-up is an issue period.....
a free run wherever you want to whenever you want to button, suppressed or not, come the fuck on.
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severe speed and fire rate debuff once the ability is used
its a free flank/get out of jail free card...

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You'd run over 2-4 RR squads with a P4? Good luck with that.
no shit, thus my point....especially the sticky airborne no one knows has stickies, or the rifles no one knows has stickies, unlike the fucking obvious shreck symbol...
how the fuck are you comparing stickies and button with mines that allies have as well? fausts should stop a tank in its tracks just like stickies and button do...
thats why allies always ram their tanks into infantry, there is no unobservable fear factor! thus no fear.
there is no balance unless it is balanced.

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About the same effect as trying to run over 2 shrek squads with a sherman
yeah yesterday puddin did a 2 m10 start, and one ran over my whole gren squad, 2 tanks, 2 ded gren squads, nuff said...


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It is an issue with a blob of anti-everything being able to destroy anything
the primary point of your concern, and mine, easily fixed with blob penalties, that too hard to understand, unless you blob, then you wouldnt want them, ahh, now i gotcha....

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Both support spam and infantry blobs are problems that severely impair gameplay. Both of them are removed via having artilery in the game.

blob penalties and hard caps would work just fine, its not an argument for artillery, as ive already pointed out.

omg fuck this, like i said, its pointless..............whats that i said about horse blinders mr circumstantial circular reasoning?Huh??

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this is pointless, cause someone will just shut it down with a pathetic narrow minded counter....
so have at it...mr horse blinders...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 07:24:06 am by IIPraeToriaNII » Logged
IIPraeToriaNII Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 121


« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2009, 05:19:40 am »

The chances of a vet3 infantry unit getting instagibbed by offmap arty is very slim...you'd have to get incredibly unlucky with the drift(because I assume you'd have the micro to avoid the smoke), AND have all your guys bunched up(which is also highly unlikely)...

just a case in point...
and did you read the previous post about the 4 ON MAP ARTILLERY PIECES in game at once, as an example.

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how many on map units?....at one point 4, plus one blown up.
Logged
CrazyWR Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3616


« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2009, 05:59:00 am »

did you see how I specifically said OFFMAP?  This thread is specifically addressing offmap arty.  Stay on topic.
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IIPraeToriaNII Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 121


« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2009, 06:46:32 am »

yup, but you failed to notice i said ARTILLERY UNIT, and on-map artillery would be a subtopic to off-map artillery...
and therefore artillery in general...thus on topic.
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you know how long it took you to get that 100xp on that infantry squad....
and for it to get insta-owned by an artillery unit just doesnt make any sense.....
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The chances of a vet3 infantry unit getting instagibbed by offmap arty is very slim...
so dont try and one up me after re-arranging my statement you incorrectly replied to.

but after all it is the suggestion forum...thus my suggestions to off maps AND on maps, artillery of course.


« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 06:51:43 am by IIPraeToriaNII » Logged
Falcon333 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1125


« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2009, 07:11:11 am »

on-map is not a suptopic of off-map artillery. They are both types of artillery in general.
Logged

"Chance favors the prepared mind"
IIPraeToriaNII Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 121


« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2009, 07:16:20 am »

on-map is not a suptopic of off-map artillery. They are both types of artillery in general.
your right, its not a suptopic, its a subtopic, why? because i made it one....
or if you prefer, msythalin did...
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If you've ever seen 2 mortars, 3 paks,4 HMGs and 5 gren squads with shreks and LMGs all bundled up together in the courtyard of the town in abbeville, you know that the single thing you CAN do against that is an off-map or an on-map

sub·topic (sub′täp′ik)

noun
a topic that is a division of a main topic
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 07:37:44 am by IIPraeToriaNII » Logged
Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2009, 07:34:50 am »

I added on-map to it so I am not accused of purposefully leaving out a form of counter - I was not intending to make it a subtopic, and you should not imply that I was.
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IIPraeToriaNII Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 121


« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2009, 07:39:12 am »

thats how it started, anyway, i already took credit for it...
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your right, its not a suptopic, its a subtopic, why? because i made it one....

can we stop with the pointless bull shit?

by the way, read my sig.
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