PE in need of an INfantry Support Tank

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[Tymathee]

smh, you just dont seem to get it. I've already stated that the IS rapes at guns when its in range but you sh ouldn't be trying to use it ot take out at guns anyway. Plus, having 13 range vs stickies isn'st enough for you? You're that bad of a microer? The only handheld at that the IS is bad against is RR's and thats every axis tank, so your proposals aren't rooted in any common sense.

Also, a new variant, Tank Busters do you get a new variant. I've already told you what I think, I just think that you suck at using it and just need to leave it alone. It's a croc type weapon as i've said, it's not used to last long, just like staghounds and ostwinds and werbel's and quads, and m8's, and stug's and stuh's and stuarts etc. etc, it's basically a suicide unit and oh btw, this thing works excellent in defense vs any type of infantry, back it up with an iht and it's just sick.

Again, it's a SUPPORT TANK! not a main battle tank that you can use by itself, every proposal you're giving will enable it to solo which totally take it out of its role, you just can't seem to get that.

[tankspirit668]

smh, you just dont seem to get it. I've already stated that the IS rapes at guns when its in range but you sh ouldn't be trying to use it ot take out at guns anyway. Plus, having 13 range vs stickies isn'st enough for you? You're that bad of a microer? The only handheld at that the IS is bad against is RR's and thats every axis tank, so your proposals aren't rooted in any common sense.

Also, a new variant, Tank Busters do you get a new variant. I've already told you what I think, I just think that you suck at using it and just need to leave it alone. It's a croc type weapon as i've said, it's not used to last long, just like staghounds and ostwinds and werbel's and quads, and m8's, and stug's and stuh's and stuarts etc. etc, it's basically a suicide unit and oh btw, this thing works excellent in defense vs any type of infantry, back it up with an iht and it's just sick.

Again, it's a SUPPORT TANK! not a main battle tank that you can use by itself, every proposal you're giving will enable it to solo which totally take it out of its role, you just can't seem to get that.

You are getting somehow personal again. RRs rape especially P IV ISTs beacause they have even a higher range than it ( Range 35 i think), so they are even better against ISTS than against any other German tank, beacause it cant fire back. Main threat are not stickies , but it`s an example , that even rifles with stickies can counter this tank most easy. They can get most easily in sticky range ( 13 Range without vet - 5 range with vet 2 ). Main threats are  AT Guns , which have ways more range and panzer IV IST just takes hits.... One Point I stated ist you have admit it`s a suicide unit. But you have no other choice than that unit, which I cannot understand by it`s pricing and that it is the only Support Tank the PE has. There is no other option than a suicide unit, which is poison in an environment like EIRR where vet matters more.

We are talking about the P IV IST and not other units , but guys state its really only useful in combination with other units and that`s not common for a Infantry Support TAnk with 10 Pop and which is Anti Infantry. To make it Useful you have to even field another AI Unit. One Anti tank Unit will rape both units then .  So I`d say between the lines you agree, that it`s underpowered or it underperforms in the current envionment. Please make some statements and advices  to bring this tank in balance.

 

[BigDick]

The 4 you would most closely compare would be:
Ami- Croc
PE - P4
Wher - ostwind/puma?
Brits - churchill 4/ stuart

Although the PE p4 should have a range change from 30 to 35. it has less range than  everything in the game.

i think some of you guys don't get what he wants to say

the only tank PE has (except the expensive AT role only panther) is the PIV IST
and that thing is not even good at AI because of its low range...

u wanna compare it to  a croc? ok but what would you say if you take away all other tanks of US like no M10 no M18 no nonupgunned sherman no upgunned sherman... just a croc

the Pe has (except on some crappy light vehicles) not much variety..
pe need fuel for their AT guns (marder) they need fuel for the crap IST for their support weapons (inf HT, mortar ht, scoutcar, muni ht, vampire...)

as us u can use light vehicles (low fuel) as AI and AT guns (no fuel at all and a different ressource than your AI) as AT..or light vehicles as AI and cheap tankdestroyers as AT....or shermans as AI and AT guns as AT

you have so many possibilities to build your company...you have so many armor that can take on different roles....

as PE you need fuel for AT guns and have a 30 range AI only tank
that costs shitloads of munitions to fulfill that role (skirts, hmg) in at least 30 range..

[tankspirit668]

That`s a nice description of the discussion  ( guess you re the only guy, who read the whole thing ), but it`s still not a proposal , which will  lead to a more viable Infantry Support Tank for PE . So I consider this somehow offtopic, but you surely got some points there.        

i think some of you guys don't get what he wants to say

the only tank PE has (except the expensive AT role only panther) is the PIV IST
and that thing is not even good at AI because of its low range...

u wanna compare it to  a croc? ok but what would you say if you take away all other tanks of US like no M10 no M18 no nonupgunned sherman no upgunned sherman... just a croc

the Pe has (except on some crappy light vehicles) not much variety..
pe need fuel for their AT guns (marder) they need fuel for the crap IST for their support weapons (inf HT, mortar ht, scoutcar, muni ht, vampire...)

as us u can use light vehicles (low fuel) as AI and AT guns (no fuel at all and a different ressource than your AI) as AT..or light vehicles as AI and cheap tankdestroyers as AT....or shermans as AI and AT guns as AT

you have so many possibilities to build your company...you have so many armor that can take on different roles....

as PE you need fuel for AT guns and have a 30 range AI only tank
that costs shitloads of munitions to fulfill that role (skirts, hmg) in at least 30 range..

That´s a nice overview of the recent discussion ( guess you are the only reading the whole
thing ). So I take the chance to sum things up, that do not make sense in EIRR:

 One point is surely longevity:  in an environment like EIR it`s better if units can get vet. A low weapon range is not helping with that - especially if your not only outranged by Recoilless Rifles, AT Guns and if u have 5 more range than Vet 2 Stickie Rifles.

The other thing is you have no choice, but this suicide type unit. Even if you want to preserve this Unit, with it`s weapon range of 30 you nearly have no chance. Look at the Leaderboard , Leading PIV IST has 30 XP.

Which will lead to two conclusions:

 
Compared to the equivalents of other factions ( Ostwind / Puma + Churchill / Stuart + Churchill Croc ) the P IV lacks range of its main gun.

1 .) An increase of its main gun should be done ( from 30 to 35 or 40 ) to make it more viable against ATGs , Stickies and other handheld AT.

Pro: Probable this change can be done easier

Con: P IV getting maybe OP regards his firing rate and lockdown

2.) P IV gets a complete new variant.

Pro: Can be better Balanced in Pricing, Pop, Firing Rate, Special Abilities like Lockdown can be removed completely. More Variety in PE Arsenal regarding Infantry Support Tanks.

Con: More work needs to be done, probably another unit variety with the same look like the original unit.

What do you think about that guys ?

[Tymathee]

I totally get what he's saying BD, I just don't think it needs to change. He wants to balance it it seems like so it can be able to take on at guns and avoid getting raped from man packed at. If you make the p4 IS 40 range, it'll be better than the normal p4 and even the sherman at taking out at guns, they do a very good job at taking out at guns as is.

Also, all medium axis tanks do bad vs stickies and man packed at, if you up the range too much it will absolutely murder infantry because then it's a faster firing, lower splash, better accuracy stuh.

Now, what I'd go for is maybe lower pop, say 8 or 9 because it is a support tank and not a main battle tank, but all MBT's are 12 pop or higher.

Now, the other axis tank i most compare it to, which is the stuh/g, is only 8 pop 300 mp and 140 fu, (380 180 stuh) is only 8 pop, where as the is is 350 mp and 205 fu and 10 pop. maybe a lower to 9 pop would hep with a man power and fuel lower to i say 320 and 190 would make it much more useful and be able to fit into more build than it is now. Even the croc got lowered to 10.

[tankspirit668]

I totally get what he's saying BD, I just don't think it needs to change. He wants to balance it it seems like so it can be able to take on at guns and avoid getting raped from man packed at. If you make the p4 IS 40 range, it'll be better than the normal p4 and even the sherman at taking out at guns, they do a very good job at taking out at guns as is.

That`s why im tending more in a new P IV IST Variant to get a more viable Support Tank, that will not be overpowererd. I don`t want an overpowered super tank ( it will be bad for the whole mod ), but a viable alternative to the current tank. Remeber the metagame in VCOH is another thing because you can tech quite fast as PE and that this is a persistenccy mod , if you loose a vettet unit it hurts more than i n VCOH.  Remember one variant i mentionend is expanding its range , the other is a complete new P IV IST Variant, like it was done with the AT IHT. Im prefering variant 2 personally. But to have no choice but this suicide unit is a no go. Please do some argumenting against that.

Also, all medium axis tanks do bad vs stickies and man packed at, if you up the range too much it will absolutely murder infantry because then it's a faster firing, lower splash, better accuracy stuh.

Now, what I'd go for is maybe lower pop, say 8 or 9 because it is a support tank and not a main battle tank, but all MBT's are 12 pop or higher.

That`s why im Leaning more towards creating a whole new variant of the P4 IST. If you want a suicide unit - fine, but if you have no other choice but this suicide thing - that`s a problem.

Now, the other axis tank i most compare it to, which is the stuh/g, is only 8 pop 300 mp and 140 fu, (380 180 stuh) is only 8 pop, where as the is is 350 mp and 205 fu and 10 pop. maybe a lower to 9 pop would hep with a man power and fuel lower to i say 320 and 190 would make it much more useful and be able to fit into more build than it is now. Even the croc got lowered to 10.

So you really think it`s overprized , doesn`t perform good for its price.

Again on topic:

Would it be bad for the overall game to have another P IV IST Variant which is not a suicide unit and has a better firing range ? To make it clear . It should be another unit, like i stated above. EDITED THIS proposal can be found below too:




Two things can be done:

Compared to the equivalents of other factions ( Ostwind / Puma + Churchill / Stuart + Churchill Croc ) the P IV lacks range of its main gun.

As i state for the third time here are my proposals:


1 .) An increase of its main gun should be done ( from 30 to 35 or 40 ) to make it more viable against ATGs , Stickies and other handheld AT.

Pro: Probable this change can be done easier

Con: P IV getting maybe OP regards his firing rate and lockdown

2.) P IV gets a complete new variant.

Pro: Can be better Balanced in Pricing, Pop, Firing Rate, Special Abilities like Lockdown can be removed completely. More Variety in PE Arsenal regarding Infantry Support Tanks.

Con: More work needs to be done, probably another unit variety with the same look like the original unit.

What do you think about that guys ?

[MonthlyMayhem]

To my experience the PIV IST is a really good support tank, I believe it can get skirts right? And lock down with the PIV IST=pretty good ROF considering it is an actually tank compared to the ostwind (which served as an AA vehicle)

[tankspirit668]

To my experience the PIV IST is a really good support tank, I believe it can get skirts right? And lock down with the PIV IST=pretty good ROF considering it is an actually tank compared to the ostwind (which served as an AA vehicle)

Could you please argument why the PE gets nothing but a suicide tank for supporting infantry ? We are beyond this state of discussion if it`s a performing well or not with it`s current stats / price. And overall I`d say there`s a tendency where everybody aggrees it underperforms for it`s price or that states that it`s a suicide unit and that PE has no alternative to it. Especially considering it`s EIRR Environment: Veterancy matters, so the unit has to stay alive and you have only one repair usage max on the unit.

Because It gets outranged by firing range  by Recoilless and Bazookas, Vet 2 Riflemen have 5 less Sticky Range and even the  Churchill Croc Flame Throwerhas more range. Please state why there should be no alternative to PE except this suicidal Infantry Support Tank, that can`t fire back, because it`s outranged. Please state why there should be not a Variant with some longevity( better firing range)  available ?

Here are my proposals again:
 
Two things can be done:

Compared to the equivalents of other factions ( Ostwind / Puma + Churchill / Stuart + Churchill Croc ) the P IV lacks range of its main gun.

As i state for the third time here are my proposals:


1 .) An increase of its main gun should be done ( from 30 to 35 or 40 ) to make it more viable against ATGs , Stickies and other handheld AT.

Pro: Probable this change can be done easier

Con: P IV getting maybe OP regards his firing rate and lockdown

2.) P IV gets a complete new variant.

Pro: Can be better Balanced in Pricing, Pop, Firing Rate, Special Abilities like Lockdown can be removed completely. More Variety in PE Arsenal regarding Infantry Support Tanks.

Con: More work needs to be done, probably another unit variety with the same look like the original unit.

What do you think about that guys ?




 

[Tymathee]

btw, who the heck are you anyway? What's the name you play with?

[tankspirit668]

btw, who the heck are you anyway? What's the name you play with?

Off topic: Please let things getting done. Let`s discuss things.

Two things can be done :

Compared to the equivalents of other factions ( Ostwind / Puma + Churchill / Stuart + Churchill Croc ) the P IV lacks range of its main gun.

As i state for the third time here are my proposals:


1 .) An increase of its main gun should be done ( from 30 to 35 or 40 ) to make it more viable against ATGs , Stickies and other handheld AT.

Pro: Probable this change can be done easier

[TodlichPanther]

Every other factions anti infantry units have a decent range and acceleration/speed (important for kiting). The quad, the puma/ostwind the staghound/cromwell. The IST has really crappy range, and acceleration, making it shit imo. The werblwind has the same issue, rubbish range, impossible to kite properly with due to ridiculous acceleration and speed.

This is one of the biggest flaws to PE imo.

seriously, ive seen people argue stickies are balanced and only really effective at vet 2, which i disagree with but thats not the issue here. To use this tank vs rifles, you have to be IN sticky range...THAT is retarded..give it range 40 and it would be DECENT imo.

Almost all hand held at has a range 35, that means a tank moving backward probably cant be shot by them unless they have a speed boost ability activated, it rewards players for microing their tank, which is the balancing factor of hand held at. This tank with a range of 30, and werbl (to some extent) with no acceleration suffer greatly due to their respective issues.

[BeRzErKeR]

Hmm, 35-40 range with lockdown..... I don't like it.

[Tymathee]

btw, who the heck are you anyway? What's the name you play with?

Off topic: Please let things getting done. Let`s discuss things.

Two things can be done :

Compared to the equivalents of other factions ( Ostwind / Puma + Churchill / Stuart + Churchill Croc ) the P IV lacks range of its main gun.

As i state for the third time here are my proposals:


1 .) An increase of its main gun should be done ( from 30 to 35 or 40 ) to make it more viable against ATGs , Stickies and other handheld AT.

Pro: Probable this change can be done easier

I'm just wondering who you are, it's very on topic.

[TodlichPanther]

lock down...so now you actually cant kite if you want to? ....i keep seeing people say how awesome lock down is, it makes you the easiest pray ever for any sort of at. At guns, fireflies, m18, stickes. ANY none infantry at will totally destroy you if you lock down. I don't think ive ever played a game as allies where all our at on the field is infantry(its more likely the other way around) based, intact, i dont use man packed anti tank..... you also become a really easy arty target if someone really doesn't like you...

ive been using these p4-IST's again since i got my T4( fortress europe) you know what? they still suck...they often miss infantry, when they do it often results in 1-2 rifles dying ( hardly special). They cant even do what there supposed to do( kill infantry properly) due to being in sticky range all the time.

[Lemures]

Croc Churchill is an Elite RE unit. Of Course it's better than a bog standard IST.  
#
It's also an Infantry Support Tank, by it's very Definition it's SUPPOSED to be used with other units.

[TodlichPanther]

Making a tank immobile for any reason is a bad idea imo, tanks are good because they combine firepower with mobility.

The IST isnt necessarily bad imo, its just another one of those units which is sub-par until it vets up, similar to the flak virling (imo) and riflemen.  This presents the problem of vetting the damn the thing up, which considering how rubbish it is takes significant time and effort. -funny fact, highest XP IST is vet 1 with 30 xp....that kinda demonstrates its rubbishness? yes?

that's how i see it anyways.

[RikiRude]

does anyone run in fear when they see an IST? no. usually people go, oh.. why'd he put that in his company? i rarely see these things be useful, but sometimes i do see them used to good effect. maybe the cool down for lock down could be decreased, i mean the marder is pretty instant, but that could make it a little bit more useful maybe?

[Todlichpanther3]

if rr's were range 45, people would be outraged. handheld at should NEVER out range tanks, thats stupid. guess which tank gets out ranged by hand held at? what tank can be KITED by rr's?....the p4-IST.

croc has up to 40 range btw.

as for comparing an IST to a croc...well if it was a competition of effectiveness the IST is gonna lose, by a really long way.

Crocs often elicit an "oh shit" reaction. IST's get an...guys, gimi a sec im gonna role this guy reaction.

Its killing power and speed are both lower than crocs, its a phailcroc.

tym, i respect your offer to get an epicly high xp tank, and take you up on the offer. Go for it, get some replays of ownage IST's. if you can.  Manage this and ill have to re-evaluate my opinion of your posting.

[MonthlyMayhem]

if rr's were range 45, people would be outraged. handheld at should NEVER out range tanks, thats stupid. guess which tank gets out ranged by hand held at? what tank can be KITED by rr's?....the p4-IST.

croc has up to 40 range btw.

as for comparing an IST to a croc...well if it was a competition of effectiveness the IST is gonna lose, by a really long way.

Crocs often elicit an "oh shit" reaction. IST's get an...guys, gimi a sec im gonna role this guy reaction.


Its killing power and speed are both lower than crocs, its a phailcroc.

tym, i respect your offer to get an epicly high xp tank, and take you up on the offer. Go for it, get some replays of ownage IST's. if you can.  Manage this and ill have to re-evaluate my opinion of your posting.

Crocs are different then IST, if you're failing that hard with one you're obviously not using it right. Its just like using a Firefly against a Panther. You have to use it right, just don't go rushing in with a IST alone, send some anti tank troops, or a marder or 50mm ATHT. Good AT weapons that hardly do any pop.

[Todlichpanther3]

wait so to stop infantry equipped with anti tank weapons i need to send in marders and 50mm halftracks?

have you actually played the game or did you not bother reading any of my previous posts?