T17

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[panzerman]

wats the first thing that comes to your head at the thought of this vehicle.

mine is wat the hell do i do to stop it that won't mean i have 2 much at on the field.

[Malgoroth]

Welcome to my minefield, asshole.

[Hicks359]

Why did i make my main account Brit...

[Demon767]

Welcome to my minefield, asshole.

i 2nd that

12 mines anyone???

[Piotrskivich]

My first thought is, lolz,


I don't bring a single schrek 

[Tymathee]

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

[Baine]

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing

[Tymathee]

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing

I'm not pro, i barely win half my games as pe but it's usually not light vehicle spam that gives me problems it's usually just the endless mass of allied infantry that gets me.

[crimsonrabbit]

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing

I'm not pro, i barely win half my games as pe but it's usually not light vehicle spam that gives me problems it's usually just the endless mass of allied infantry that gets me.

hey tym ma brotha frum anotha mutha n fatha n continent, look on da brighyt side homie at least u git 2 smoke sum foos online.
represent...
i support barack obama and jesse jackson.
peace out homie. 

[Smokaz]

You're like a cartoon character, crimson.

[crimsonrabbit]

You're like a cartoon character, crimson.

[Tymathee]

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing

I'm not pro, i barely win half my games as pe but it's usually not light vehicle spam that gives me problems it's usually just the endless mass of allied infantry that gets me.

hey tym ma brotha frum anotha mutha n fatha n continent, look on da brighyt side homie at least u git 2 smoke sum foos online.
represent...
i support barack obama and jesse jackson.
peace out homie. 

I take offense ot that, I hate jesse jackson

[crimsonrabbit]

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing

I'm not pro, i barely win half my games as pe but it's usually not light vehicle spam that gives me problems it's usually just the endless mass of allied infantry that gets me.

hey tym ma brotha frum anotha mutha n fatha n continent, look on da brighyt side homie at least u git 2 smoke sum foos online.
represent...
i support barack obama and jesse jackson.
peace out homie. 

I take offense ot that, I hate jesse jackson

AY AY AY! Dont b racist!
represent...

[CrazyWR]

too much AT = 1 p4?

[BradAnderson]

Crimson, you scare me dawg.

[panzerman]

too much AT = 1 p4?

somthing that costs about the same and is an even counter.

[Smokaz]

Something that a few players need to Realize is that tweaking the t17 to be less effective based on the arguments and concerns that have been raised, sets a precedence for future balancing. Allow me to recap the issues related to the t17 to the best of my ability.

- It is overperforming for cost (It has effective health comparable to shermans against most wehr AT for much less fuel and manpower cost)
- Its mobility has no pop equivalent counter from wehrmacht; nothing wehrmacht has can keep up with its movement and still counter it for pop
-- The above causes a problem as it leaves wehrmacht unable to compete for map control against t17 on the sides with options that are supposed to allow them to do this (Upgun puma failing)
- Even counters that have similar population cost to the t17 and are unable to compete for mobility, are unreliable at best in taking down a t17 that decides to fight it (pak + shrek) because of it overperforming for cost

Now that we have recapped the issue, I will further endorse why balancing the t17 from these arguments sets a good precedence, one that is particularily fitting for the issue of the upgun sherman.

- Upgun sherman underperforms for cost compared to similar options (Upgrade of P4 has no downside and still makes it better at its duties)
- The inability of the upgun sherman to reliably defeat a p4 (which it should) constitutes a mobility problem, as the p4 is the same pop cost
- This causes a problem for americans as they cannot send a upgun sherman for pop to deal with a p4 but have to bring an additonal AT source that can deal with the p4

It's not a 100% clear A to B extrapolation, but let's try to get away from the balancing that one imbalance justifies another which seems to be prevalent on these forums. We're not looking to make a makeshift balance here, glued together and secured with ducktape.

[panzerman]

i would rather see a sherman even or better than the P4 and the stag debuffed or somthing. because a sherman in some ways was better than a P4 or at least it was an even fight.

[nated0g]

Personally, I dont find the T17 to be a particular problem. It the hands of a good player its is devastating. But then again so are alot of things in the hands of a good player.
I personally have tried this myself ( i play both sides ) and have failed on several occasions and succeded on several others.
Alot of the problems of dealing with T17s come down to several factors:

1) Lack of vent; unfortunetly, countering Light Armour Spam (LAS) required an incrediable high amount of team work (and often throwing away vet). Any team unable to quickly co-ordinate a defense can be easily swept aside. Thats the nature of EIR team games.

2)Lack of AT; some companies simply dont carry enough AT as axis. This tho is a particular problem for PE which is part of PE's characteristic. The lack of a medium tank (and turreted vehicles) means there is very little a PE player can do against fast moving targets. That is not an issue with the T17 but with PE in particular.

3) A mixture of both will definetly cost you a game.

Pop counters are not a good way to measure efficiency. Arguably a panther is way too effective for its pop as for 16 pop it can (and often does) nail several shermans  which is 36 pop, double the fuel/manpower. The factions are different and I would strongly advise against direct comparisons for cost/pop/dmg.

I do play both sides alot, if anything I've found the British Staghound is the one i think is more in need to be tweaked, more so than the T17. Personally i think increasing t17s and M8s by 1 Pop (to pop 9), means you can't start with 3 would solve 60-70% of the complaints.

[fallensoldier7]

On the contrary, in my experiences PE has an easier time dealing with LAS than Wehrmacht.  Clown cars are really helpful since the light armor can't run away from a ht.  LATHTs are awesome because of their ability to take care of both AI and AT.  A disabled light vehicle is a dead one, assuming the PE player has at least a clown car, marder, or 50mm supporting the LATHT.  PE just has access to a larger number of mobile AT options, which helps against LAS since hit and run is a common tactic with LAS.