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Author Topic: T17  (Read 6218 times)
0 Members and 13 Guests are viewing this topic.
panzerman Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 689


T17
« on: October 08, 2009, 03:38:34 am »

wats the first thing that comes to your head at the thought of this vehicle.

mine is wat the hell do i do to stop it that won't mean i have 2 much at on the field.
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Malgoroth Offline
Donator
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Posts: 960


« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 04:10:46 am »

Welcome to my minefield, asshole.
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Hicks359
Guest
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 05:55:15 am »

Why did i make my main account Brit...
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Demon767 Offline
Warmap Betatester
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6190



« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2009, 06:04:09 am »

Welcome to my minefield, asshole.

i 2nd that

12 mines anyone???
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Generalleutnant of The Reichs Wolves

Nevergetsputonlistguy767
Piotrskivich Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 542



« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2009, 08:43:15 am »

My first thought is, lolz,


I don't bring a single schrek  Cool
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Tymathee Offline
Donator
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Posts: 9741



« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2009, 09:09:25 am »

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.
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"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"

Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.
Baine Offline
Steven Spielberg
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Posts: 3713


« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2009, 09:18:02 am »

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing Tongue
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Tymathee Offline
Donator
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Posts: 9741



« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2009, 09:22:51 am »

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing Tongue

I'm not pro, i barely win half my games as pe but it's usually not light vehicle spam that gives me problems it's usually just the endless mass of allied infantry that gets me.
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crimsonrabbit Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 380



« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2009, 12:05:03 pm »

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing Tongue

I'm not pro, i barely win half my games as pe but it's usually not light vehicle spam that gives me problems it's usually just the endless mass of allied infantry that gets me.
hey tym ma brotha frum anotha mutha n fatha n continent, look on da brighyt side homie at least u git 2 smoke sum foos online.
represent...
i support barack obama and jesse jackson.
peace out homie.  Smiley
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I defy all laws of scienceee.

This is Bunny.
Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination
(\__/)
(+'.'+)
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Smokaz Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 11418



« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 12:05:54 pm »

You're like a cartoon character, crimson.
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SlippedHerTheBigOne: big penis puma
SlippedHerTheBigOne: and i have no repairkits
SlippedHerTheBigOne: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
crimsonrabbit Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 380



« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 12:07:39 pm »

Quote from: Smokaz link=topic=12539.msg213385#msg213385 date=125502javascript:void(0);5154
You're like a cartoon character, crimson.
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Tymathee Offline
Donator
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Posts: 9741



« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 12:45:09 pm »

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing Tongue

I'm not pro, i barely win half my games as pe but it's usually not light vehicle spam that gives me problems it's usually just the endless mass of allied infantry that gets me.
hey tym ma brotha frum anotha mutha n fatha n continent, look on da brighyt side homie at least u git 2 smoke sum foos online.
represent...
i support barack obama and jesse jackson.
peace out homie.  Smiley

I take offense ot that, I hate jesse jackson
Logged
crimsonrabbit Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 380



« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2009, 12:56:02 pm »

i dont understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with this. Maybe it's a more of an anti wehr strategy because as PE I've never had issues with T-17 spam.

Maybe your just one of the Pro players with uber skill. Then your opinion won't count, as only the mid skillers do the balancing Tongue

I'm not pro, i barely win half my games as pe but it's usually not light vehicle spam that gives me problems it's usually just the endless mass of allied infantry that gets me.
hey tym ma brotha frum anotha mutha n fatha n continent, look on da brighyt side homie at least u git 2 smoke sum foos online.
represent...
i support barack obama and jesse jackson.
peace out homie.  Smiley

I take offense ot that, I hate jesse jackson
AY AY AY! Dont b racist!
represent...
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CrazyWR Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3616


« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2009, 01:47:46 pm »

too much AT = 1 p4?
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1. New tactics? it's like JAWS, first one in the water dies

RCA-land where shells fall like raindrops and the Captain is an invincible god
BradAnderson Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1233



« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 05:51:20 pm »

Crimson, you scare me dawg.
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panzerman Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 689


« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2009, 06:19:59 pm »

too much AT = 1 p4?

somthing that costs about the same and is an even counter.
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Smokaz Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 11418



« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2009, 07:06:30 pm »

Something that a few players need to Realize is that tweaking the t17 to be less effective based on the arguments and concerns that have been raised, sets a precedence for future balancing. Allow me to recap the issues related to the t17 to the best of my ability.

- It is overperforming for cost (It has effective health comparable to shermans against most wehr AT for much less fuel and manpower cost)
- Its mobility has no pop equivalent counter from wehrmacht; nothing wehrmacht has can keep up with its movement and still counter it for pop
-- The above causes a problem as it leaves wehrmacht unable to compete for map control against t17 on the sides with options that are supposed to allow them to do this (Upgun puma failing)
- Even counters that have similar population cost to the t17 and are unable to compete for mobility, are unreliable at best in taking down a t17 that decides to fight it (pak + shrek) because of it overperforming for cost

Now that we have recapped the issue, I will further endorse why balancing the t17 from these arguments sets a good precedence, one that is particularily fitting for the issue of the upgun sherman.

- Upgun sherman underperforms for cost compared to similar options (Upgrade of P4 has no downside and still makes it better at its duties)
- The inability of the upgun sherman to reliably defeat a p4 (which it should) constitutes a mobility problem, as the p4 is the same pop cost
- This causes a problem for americans as they cannot send a upgun sherman for pop to deal with a p4 but have to bring an additonal AT source that can deal with the p4

It's not a 100% clear A to B extrapolation, but let's try to get away from the balancing that one imbalance justifies another which seems to be prevalent on these forums. We're not looking to make a makeshift balance here, glued together and secured with ducktape.

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panzerman Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 689


« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2009, 11:52:42 pm »

i would rather see a sherman even or better than the P4 and the stag debuffed or somthing. because a sherman in some ways was better than a P4 or at least it was an even fight.
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nated0g Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 90


« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2009, 12:05:32 am »

Personally, I dont find the T17 to be a particular problem. It the hands of a good player its is devastating. But then again so are alot of things in the hands of a good player.
I personally have tried this myself ( i play both sides ) and have failed on several occasions and succeded on several others.
Alot of the problems of dealing with T17s come down to several factors:

1) Lack of vent; unfortunetly, countering Light Armour Spam (LAS) required an incrediable high amount of team work (and often throwing away vet). Any team unable to quickly co-ordinate a defense can be easily swept aside. Thats the nature of EIR team games.

2)Lack of AT; some companies simply dont carry enough AT as axis. This tho is a particular problem for PE which is part of PE's characteristic. The lack of a medium tank (and turreted vehicles) means there is very little a PE player can do against fast moving targets. That is not an issue with the T17 but with PE in particular.

3) A mixture of both will definetly cost you a game.

Pop counters are not a good way to measure efficiency. Arguably a panther is way too effective for its pop as for 16 pop it can (and often does) nail several shermans  which is 36 pop, double the fuel/manpower. The factions are different and I would strongly advise against direct comparisons for cost/pop/dmg.

I do play both sides alot, if anything I've found the British Staghound is the one i think is more in need to be tweaked, more so than the T17. Personally i think increasing t17s and M8s by 1 Pop (to pop 9), means you can't start with 3 would solve 60-70% of the complaints.

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fallensoldier7 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 667


« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2009, 12:25:11 am »

On the contrary, in my experiences PE has an easier time dealing with LAS than Wehrmacht.  Clown cars are really helpful since the light armor can't run away from a ht.  LATHTs are awesome because of their ability to take care of both AI and AT.  A disabled light vehicle is a dead one, assuming the PE player has at least a clown car, marder, or 50mm supporting the LATHT.  PE just has access to a larger number of mobile AT options, which helps against LAS since hit and run is a common tactic with LAS.
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