The Cost of sniping.

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[VERTIGGO]

I don't want to make a big stink, and I'm not rage posting, but I have some concerns about the balance of sniping between factions.

Wehrmacht Sniper
500mp
200mun
normal cloaking
weak
7 pop

Allied Sniper
540mp
200mun
normal cloaking
weak
7 pop

Commando Sniper
460mp
200mun
no cloak right?
relatively very survivable (2 commandos)
6 pop

Recon Tommies
210mp
45mun
no cloak
detector
extremely survivable (5 tommies)
5 pop
sniping is timer based

The biggest problem I see is that an ability that was meant to be pay per use (just like a faust/sticky) is now free (45 mun for unlimited snipes). If it is only several uses then please correct this, but from experience it seems they snipe as much as they want to.

Essentially when a brit player has two on the field together, he can insta-retreat a vet3 lmg squad, because they can halve the grens before they can even return fire. With conventional snipers this is risky, because you can just chase them down, but for less cost (even less than half the mun) you have a 10 pop blob that is tough to suppress, and can snipe two at a time (granted it's on a timer).

Anything I missed or other angles? I know CW's countersnipe is weak, and detection is not very mobile, but I'm talking about simple infantry combat at the moment...

[Groundfire]

you shouldnt be thinking of a recon section as a sniper unit.

At most, it's an ability that a weaker form of the tommy section has.

The amount of pop spent on recon Tommies to get 1 axis squad to insta retreat is quite high. After the snipe is exhausted they are just weaker tommies for a couple minutes.

I dont see this as an actual problem, just dont give them a chance to recover from the cooldown.

[Smokaz]

One way to solve this (Im remaining neutral to whether or not its a problem) would be to increase the range of recon countersnipe, but vastly increase the cooldown as well or stop veterancy from affecting cooldown.

If the range is far but the cooldown long, it becomes a more effective counter to the sniper while downplaying its use against regular infantry. Brits need the anti-sniper utility of the recon team, but right now it might be overshadowed by the recon's team ability to compete with brens for anti-infantry duty with doctrinal buffs from Commandos or RCA by fielding a lot of recons.

In my opinion, the recon teams bring great utility in the RCA/commando doctrine so them being a valued and costly unit instead of a "spammed" one seems more fair than the current implementation. They should be deployed to bring down a wehrmacht sniper giving the british infantry trouble, and then after bringing it down be a supporting unit in other situations.

Increasing the munition cost of the recon team to 1/4 of a sniper but giving them a range that makes them much more dangerous to snipers seems a amiable solution.

[Smokaz]

you shouldnt be thinking of a recon section as a sniper unit.

At most, it's an ability that a weaker form of the tommy section has.

The amount of pop spent on recon Tommies to get 1 axis squad to insta retreat is quite high. After the snipe is exhausted they are just weaker tommies for a couple minutes.

I dont see this as an actual problem, just dont give them a chance to recover from the cooldown.

Actually in RCA or commando doctrine, recons are competing with with brens when I decide what I'm buying for my company. Mark target is just THAT good. Being "out of cover" leaves you extremely vulnerable to the staghound, burst fire weapons and supression.

[Tymathee]

the snipe isn't that great, so you can half a squad, but then you have a what, 2 minute cool down? Well, if i use a normal sniper, i can pop that same squad at range and within the same amount of time that with two squad i can half the squad, that sniper can kill the whole squad, which do you think is more useful?

I think people fear snipers more than they do recon tommies. I know i like using recon tommies mainly to pop infantry in cover or houses or to pop an lmg squad because knockin that one guy out will make the lmg reset and give you a little more time to take the squad out but it's a huge reload time, it's not that great of an ability, especially since you basically have a 4 man squada, that 5th sniper doesn't use his gun, he's just there, people seem to forget that.

Also...please don't get on the brits about recon tommies lol Wehr carries around a portable machine gun, i've seen some terror companies not even bother with hmgs and just carry double lmg's around and pop 'em in buildings, they're just as good that way and they're mobile.

What about the ultimate griefing weapon, the G43? Oh hey here comes my vet 3 rifle, omg, my rifle is slowed! Oh ones, assault gren, i can't run away! Slow > Recon Snipe and then the G43 is an upgrade in firepower while when you use a recon squad you lose firepower. A vanilla volks squad can beat a recon squad 1v1 even with the snipe.

Also, what about the upgrades the axis sniper gets that makes it into a semi automatic sniper rifle. Ever seen an axis sniper on blitz or conviction? or inspired assault or ferocity? That can take out whole squads in no time.

[Mysthalin]

I don't even have a competition "brens or recon tommies" in my coy. I just go full out recon tommies, as I find them way more appealing as a unit.

I think the problem with the RT is it's "Do it all" nature.
If we were to do something simmilar to what OMG did, and make sniping a seperate upgrade that takes away the long sight range and mine detection, I think the problem could be alleviated.

[Smokaz]

the snipe isn't that great, so you can half a squad, but then you have a what, 2 minute cool down? Well, if i use a normal sniper, i can pop that same squad at range and within the same amount of time that with two squad i can half the squad, that sniper can kill the whole squad, which do you think is more useful?

At sniping constantly? The sniper. At detecting mines, providing great sight range, possible recrew, picking up weapons, mark targeting..? The recon squad. They are different units for sure but the recon squad overperforms in terms versatility. You might not get in as many snipes as get with a wehr or ami sniper over a period of short time, but you can keep that 2 man squad around forever.

I think people fear snipers more than they do recon tommies. I know i like using recon tommies mainly to pop infantry in cover or houses or to pop an lmg squad because knockin that one guy out will make the lmg reset and give you a little more time to take the squad out but it's a huge reload time, it's not that great of an ability, especially since you basically have a 4 man squada, that 5th sniper doesn't use his gun, he's just there, people seem to forget that.

I think its pretty great for 45 munitions. You only need to be able to take out one single mg42 for it to have paid for itself, something a correctly used recon snipe will achieve with minimal support.

Also...please don't get on the brits about recon tommies lol Wehr carries around a portable machine gun, i've seen some terror companies not even bother with hmgs and just carry double lmg's around and pop 'em in buildings, they're just as good that way and they're mobile.

Lmgs and mg42 are not overlapping weapons. One is a supression tool, the other is a weapon that deals damage mostly.

What about the ultimate griefing weapon, the G43? Oh hey here comes my vet 3 rifle, omg, my rifle is slowed! Oh ones, assault gren, i can't run away! Slow > Recon Snipe and then the G43 is an upgrade in firepower while when you use a recon squad you lose firepower. A vanilla volks squad can beat a recon squad 1v1 even with the snipe.

Also, what about the upgrades the axis sniper gets that makes it into a semi automatic sniper rifle. Ever seen an axis sniper on blitz or conviction? or inspired assault or ferocity? That can take out whole squads in no time.

A regular sniper compared to a recon team is more than 4x times as expensive in terms of munitions, so you would expect it to be able to do more damage than a recon section. And a g43 team on its own will not be able to kill the last man of any unit through slow, but other supporting units might.

[RikiRude]

I don't find a problem with recons, I'm curious vert if you have used them yourself? Take note of this.

2 recon tommies vs 1 lmg squad. Right there we have a problem, a 2 on 1 situation. So it's kind of borked. All you have to do is chase down the RTs two gren squads will tear them up because RT are weaker than normal tommys.

I'm RCA and RT aren't too dangerous til you get them to vet 3, I do admit they are very survivable, but I would much rather take a bren squad over a recon squad when it comes to fighting, the best thing for a RT squad though is picking up a weapon, then they are pretty kick ass. For me I always have a RT squad on to spot with, and let me know what's coming, the sniping is just there to take a pot shot then pull back and let my other guys do the real work.

[Draken]

All brit players go stag spam and recon spam, I see less balanced brit companies then gimmicks atm. If major of the community uses certain build and certain doctrine it's obvious that something is wrong. Vet 3 and doctrine unlocks make them to strong. Also in even matches you don't snipe in same spot, mostly you use sniper like you recon tommies, you take one shot then retreat to don't get counter sniped and you change position.

[Smokaz]

I'd log in to my british account to check, but I'm pretty sure Im fielding as many recons as I am fielding brens because mark target annihiliates charging units and recon snipe gives me mine detectors with a small insurance against snipers and zeal-based companies. It must be pretty bad when I feel I can compete with terror infantry using recons.

[wildsolus]

If major of the community uses certain build and certain doctrine it's obvious that something is wrong. Vet 3 and doctrine unlocks make them to strong.

it's a problem because recon teams are 'broken' with certain doctrine and vet3 and they are capable of 'beating' the hardest (broken) doctrine in the game which i think is t4 ferocity with shitloads of grens.

[Tymathee]

Draken, that's a rather bias view of brits because most of the better players in EIRR have "gimmick" companies. You dont see a lot of "balanced" companies anymore. A lot of times gimmick companies are either units that that player is good with or whats the most powerful. I used to go with a very good assortment of recons + tommies. Like 8 calls ins of 1 each and then i decided I wanted to go with more recons, not because of their power, heck i'd rather call in my recon/tommy before my double recon call in but because t hey're 40 less pop each (total of 80) and i can field another vehicle with that 160 extra pop i'm getting between the what i've got.

I use recons a lot and I use them like riki says, i usually use them to take pot shots or finish off stuff, but i never use them to actually attack anything, they're more like support units. Now there are those who spam them and spam the snipe ability to take out a whole squad at once but thats not me. I'd much rather field a wehr sniper over a recon toommy anyday to take on infantry. I manly use recon tommies for...recon. I could care less about the snipe ability, take it away and i'll still field as many as I do now.

[Draken]

I'm biased, everyone is, I'm biased towards weak sides, not because so... I play all sides and accusing me of being biased towards only one side is kinda meh.
It sounds for me that you are trying to defend your company, it's very stupid to balance game like you try to do, it's just matter of time when it's gonna be fixed same as ferocity zeal, grens.

The problem is that 90% of my games with/ against british players. Look at Derrican (well he is good but why only with brits with recon spam), is he really so awesome or recon tommies are?

[Tymathee]

I didn't say you are bias, i know most people are bias, I said your view is bias.

I play all sides as well except for wehr and I don't recon spam like Myst does, I use them mainly for recon and pop shotting.

i'm not one of those spammers. While I may agree that it may need a bit more of a price to it muni wise, i dont think it's all that great just because you have people who want to spam 2-4 of them at once and take out whole squads at once.

[Malevolence]

Simple, increase recon tommy snipe range to that (or maybe one or two more units than) of the sniper and put it on uses with a moderately long cooldown. Snipe my grens? Okay, but then my wehr sniper kills your whole army.

[Smokaz]

I dont think I would rate it as "simple" to make recon teams auto-kill sniper from his max range,  its more like "stupid". There should still be some kind of flank/rush involved in taking him down. If Hans is going to be countersnipable from max range, a miss chance is needed. He's to expensive to become trivial to take down with a much cheaper squad.

And whats this about the 5th guy in the recon squad not normally shooting? Is he... acting like a minesweeping spotter?

[Malevolence]

Well, if you make it the same range you can duck in and out of sniping range with Hans as the sniper squad tumbles head over heels trying to get the man with the scope into position.

[Tymathee]

And whats this about the 5th guy in the recon squad not normally shooting? Is he... acting like a minesweeping spotter?

the 5th guy turns into the sniper and he doesn't shoot until you tell him to, other wise, he's the recon guy. I'm guessing he's using his scope to spot? He's just carrying the big gun and not doing anything.

[nated0g]

The Recon Tommies do have quite a quick cooldown with vet on them, but really I dont find it a problem at all unless its a recon tommie spam.

I mean, brits dont have jeeps in 2/3 of their doctrines and you have to unlock the Para jeep to get one.

Addtionally, as much as you say the sniper is "survivable", its not any more survivable than the others.

For example, you can cloak and hide in your rear lines and are relatively safe from flanking pumas (as an example). The Commando Sniper team on the other hand is very vulnerable to being spotted by random flanking vehicles.
The other argument is that he is less prone to beign sniped himself. Again, there is a 50% chance the sniper man  himself dies, therefore making the unit usless (since the weapon is not switched over to the last man)
Like, Tymethee, I have 8 Recons (paired with regulars) and I find them very useful as a tactical unit for anti-support wpns or scouting. Although i do agree that the vet3 cooldown is way too quick.

Again, i would like to emphasize the point that it is Brits ONLY recon unit as a faction, so I think you'll find it hard to convince the Brit players here to give that up or change it in any signifcant way.

[RikiRude]

i don't think it's too difficult to get RT to vet 3, but it does take some time. as wher i haven't had any trouble with RT, I just run them off the map after they take that shot. maybe i haven't gone against good RT spam yet?