[WM] BlitzKrieg

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[Demon767]

I believe that Blitzkrieg[The ablility] should have a negative speed effect and reload effect on both vehicles and infantry after the ability wears off against similar to Fire-Up.

I believe compiled with HEAT Rounds its a massive I WIN button against any Allied tanks

[Tymathee]

I believe that Blitzkrieg[The ablility] should have a negative speed effect and reload effect on both vehicles and infantry after the ability wears off against similar to Fire-Up.

I believe compiled with HEAT Rounds its a massive I WIN button against any Allied tanks

Hmm, not a bad idea.

[fallensoldier7]

Seems like a reasonable idea.  However, fire-up isn't on a limited number of uses and you don't have to pay for it, which is why there's a negative effect.  Units don't shoot faster when fired up.  They only move faster and can't be suppressed.

Blitzkrieg on the other hand is a doctrine ability, can only be used 1-3 times I think, and increases speed AND rate of fire, along with giving temporary heavy crush to PIVs.

Another problem with giving a negative cooldown to Blitzkrieg is that usually you only use Blitzkrieg for 1, 2, or 3 max units.  Even though it's a global ability, you might only be using it to reap benefits for one unit.  Since there's no way for the game to know which units you intended to use Blitz for, that means that once a Blitz player pops Blitz and it wears off, his ENTIRE army will have negative modifiers.. Fire-up, on the other hand, is a single unit ability.

[Mysthalin]

Seems like a reasonable idea, I like it.

[NightRain]

I second with Fallensoldier in this case. +1

[EscforrealityTLS]

You can't really add negative effects to it because once it wares off every one of the units on  the file is going to take a negative hit. That would mean you would be completely vulnerable to attack right across the board.

I can't see many people using it with negative effects unless the initial ability was improved. As in it lasted longer or gave superior buffs for the time it is activated.

[panzerman]

wow that would suck for a tiger,
i think it shouldn't have the cool down i mean yes improved barrels + HEAT rounds + blitz + panther = at least 3 allied vehicles and shit load of other stuff dying...

i killed 2 churchills and a firefly with that and in another game cleaned up three shermans who blobed me trying to kill my panther.
i reckon it would need some testing to see if it is overkill or not.

[Demon767]

Yea thats my exact point Panzerman, thats overkill, its a really powerful ability with all the buffs from the doctrine, it wasnt a problem in vanilla since there was no buffs as we have in EIRR.

Sure it does a negative effect across the board, but its pretty much an inspired assault yes? all your troops should atleast be in cover, same can be said for blitzs in this regards. and whats the main purpose of blitzKrieg in EIR? its used for tanks to bugger out or completely WTF own any allied vehicle, not that it actually needs it though because WM tanks own every single allied tank 1v1.

theoretically Blitz should be used with a Armored+Infantry push correct? its not used in that fashion though because in the EIRR environment its better to pop it when your tanks are engaged in any combat. and its an ability which that you cant avoid if you get caught in it.

It be like a 10sec cooldown, its not something drastically nerfing, but it would be in the right direction for balance. It just forces you to think, "I cant leave my tank here i need to pull back before Blitz wears off or i might get caught". Or "If i use this blitz correctly with luck i can severely snipe and destroy there armor with my panther, if i stuff this up my panther will be very vulnerable, i hope my Pak gun will suffice until the cooldown wears off if that happens" type of thing. 

[Smokaz]

IMO, Its not blitzkrieg which is the problem, its heat round being a free buff when similar buffs for armor is a costly upgrade for tanks. Blitzkrieg has penalties associated with it. Try using it at long range or with inaccurate units and it completely fails. What happens is that p4s just slug it out with the shermans/tank destroyers at short range where high penetration, damage and rate of fire favorises them.

Also, blitzkrieg could be a upgrade for tanks with uses or recharge time. That would incur cost associated with the winbutton at short range.

[Pak88mm]

i think it should have some accuracy penalty like in VCoH or at least thats what the tooltips said.

[Tymathee]

i think it should have some accuracy penalty like in VCoH or at least thats what the tooltips said.

th4ere is an accuracy penalty but when you throw up a lot of shots its hard to miss, then there's conviction which is the same as blitz but with no penalties.

but as is, i dunno, blitz can just be an insane ability. I thikn it's a t1 right now right? Maybe it should be a t2 ability, its just that powerful even if you have one, it can easily win a fight.

[Draken]

Blitz is just to strong for T1 ability, comparing it to armor T3 Expierenced loaders which gives 33% faster reload and 33% less cooldown, blitz gives 25% less reload and 50% less cooldown heavy crush, and higher speed, so it compensates 25% less accuracy, looks bit op.

[pqumsieh]

@ Draken: not to mention exp loaders is a T3; whereas, blitz is a T1. You would expect EL to be far superior. I think we should move blitz to tier 2 or the more balanced option of moving it to T3. 25% less accuarcy is quite a small penality when compared to the boosts, and even at T3 it is competitive; I'd even argue its better than experienced loaders.

PQ

[von_Luchs]

Fallen's points are good ones and if we're thinking balance we should'nt overlook them.

Also, blitz only seems OP when its coupled with HEAT rounds and to a lesser degree imp. barrels.  That makes it narrower than fire-up, that means ALL blitz players should go HEAT (which as it now stands is probably likely), but thats a doctrinal design problem not a blitz ability one.

Additionally, Demon made the point that blitz should be used in combo with inf and armor, and this seems to be the design idea in the doc tree  with bufffs to inf who are close tanks.  The problem is that no one uses inf in a blitz (unless trying to flank) because it doesnt get you out of supression the way fire-up does, which is the OPness of fire up.  How many times have axis players lost MGs to AB or rangers charging through them.

And the horror stories we hear with respect to blitz can be matched by horror stories of AB blobs RRing everything to death, or puddins (couldnt think of anyone else, but im sure others can) vet3 piats 1 shotting panthers over a hedge.  It just seems to me that if blitz is a problem (and I dont think it is), its just part of the game at the moment and no bigger a deal than some of the benefits allies have access too, like fire up.  I think folks in the forum have called this sort of thing "gamey", and EiR just has a lot of that right now.  A combination of crazy vet bonuses and doc abilities. 

To call for a nerf of one would require the nerfing and balancing of alot of other things.  If we're doing that, then Im all for it.  Otherwise, Im not so sure.

[Mysthalin]

I personally use blitzkrieg exclusively for stormtrooper shreks.

[RikiRude]

id trade my T3 EL for a friggen T1 of blitz! either make EL way better, blitz a T2 or even T3, or move EL to T1 or T2. blitz will guarantee that you win an engagement, EL might HELP you win one.

[Smokaz]

A sherman with flank speed and experienced loaders replicate the blitzkrieg ability well enough, and the reduced accuracy stacks with the reduced accuracy from moving when a p4 for example uses blitzkrieg. A exp loader sherman can snipe away from long range and the user can expect it to hit a lot. The wehr player cant. You can also get 5 uses of loaders. There are differences here that help balance it out.

The problem here is heat rounds being free, or rather AP rounds costing resources. I've outlined this balance problem to the devs, they need to decide how they are planning to solve it. Its also dubious that heat rounds is a passive effect while AP/HE is timed.

[RikiRude]

A sherman with flank speed and experienced loaders replicate the blitzkrieg ability well enough, and the reduced accuracy stacks with the reduced accuracy from moving when a p4 for example uses blitzkrieg. A exp loader sherman can snipe away from long range and the user can expect it to hit a lot. The wehr player cant. You can also get 5 uses of loaders. There are differences here that help balance it out.

The problem here is heat rounds being free, or rather AP rounds costing resources. I've outlined this balance problem to the devs, they need to decide how they are planning to solve it. Its also dubious that heat rounds is a passive effect while AP/HE is timed.

so an allied T1 + T3 = an axis 1 T1? i know what you mean with the making these things cost resources, and i agree. the simple truth is axis dont need LB or HR to make using blitz useful, it just helps.

[Smokaz]

Yes.

But the T1 + T3 is better than the T1. Flank speed makes you faster than a blitzkrieg-affected P4. Experienced loaders doesnt incur a accuracy penalty. Only at short range does the P4's increased rate of fire combined with the inferior penetration of the sherman and the damage bonus from heat rounds make it a better ability.

LB or HR isnt useful for a blitzing p4 unless it is at short range. Flank speed/Loaders is useful at any range.

[Mysthalin]

Blitz is always useful on cloaked and uncloaked stormies. Always.