Opinion on Power of Allied vs Axis

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[Smokaz]

I dont understand how you can be so infatuated with british AT over american at. Its confusing to me what makes the british AT evenly good to the american AT.

Zooks - Exellent against bikes, armored cars, infantry halftracks, anything PE has, pumas, Cheap.
RRs - Superior against anything else than pumas, bikes and AC's.
Piats - Cant hit moving targets, circumstance ballistic weapon, Cheap

57mm - Great penetration with AP rounds, receives mad buffs from AB/Inf doctrine that stacks
6 Pounder - Crappy penetration, cloak in cover, gets no doctrinal buffs (LT?)

M10/M18 - Inexpensive, good penetration, ambush, good speed, good turret turning speed, handles a P4
Firefly (without cct) - Sucks donkey balls (summed up)

Button - Demands stupid, and even stupid isnt that harshly punished unless there is supporitng at.
Sticky - Awesome range at vet 2, inflicts damage that critically impacts the tank.

[fallensoldier7]

If Allied and Axis support teams had the same effectiveness, then I think a part of the game would be a bit duller.  That's how it's always been: Axis support > Allied support.

No offence meant to Lionel, but the problem I see here is that you are expecting the Allied version of the units to perform the same way the Axis version performs.  Let's take the Sherman example.  One way you could use Shermans is to use them the same way most Axis players use PIVs.  That is, use them to fight everything and kite infantry.  For some, that works, but for others (myself included) the sheer amount of Axis AT that can be fielded really discourages me from using that type of playstyle.  So instead of using Shermans as a main battle tank, in my AB company I have decided to use Shermans to mainly stop enemy infantry from bumrushing my AB squads.  That is the ONLY thing I use them for, so I don't buy anything on my Shermans.  Yes, that means I will never vet up my Shermans, and yes that is not how a PIV is used for the Axis, but the way I use my Shermans is, IMO, a better tactical and strategical investment than trying to keep them alive and use them to fight enemy PIVs.  I know Shermans won't beat skirted PIVs head-on, so I'll leave the AT duty to my AB and let the Shermans take care of the infantry.

The thing I find more interesting with the Allies is this:

oh right i forgot. allies need doctrines to help them out.
I can run identical companies across doctrines as axis all just with different buffs.
allies i need different units across doctrines sometimes i dont like said units and would rather PICK my buff.

I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing.  I think it's more interesting to shape my company to support a core of units than to just have the same army with different buffs each time I use a different doctrine.  Some Axis armies do this, but this is more so for the Allies.  The goal of an Armor company, for example, is to kill as much AT as possible so the light vehicles and tanks can roam free.

Some people will disagree with me, but I think Axis (Wehr in particular) is less micro-intensive and less tactical than the Allies.  Take an Armor company AP round Hellcat for example.  You first need to determine if running into the fight with your Hellcat will be a good tactical decision.  If the enemy tank is properly supported by a pak or shrek, then chances are you don't want to run in there.  Once you decide it's a good decision, you must micro into the fight, hit halt, hit cloak, hit AP rounds, hit Experience Loaders (if applicable), wait for the first shot, uncloak, make sure you fire off the second and third shots before getting out of range, and then run away.

On the other side of the spectrum, let's examine a typical Axis scenario.  Let's use a Blitz 6 PIV company as an example.  You need to bring something on.  You've already got a good amount of anti-tank and anti-infantry on the field, so you choose to bring in a PIV.  Then you have to attack-move into the first fight you see and slowly attack-move backwards.  The only time you would actually have to micro your PIV with right-clicks is when there is an ATG in the vicinity, in which case you just need to wait for your grens to kill the ATG or use your PIV to flank it.  Even if the ATG hits you, there's no need to panic since you've got skirts.  Since ATGs usually don't pop AP rounds when a PIV is only at the edge of the ATG's range, you don't need to worry about AP rounds taking a good chunk out of your health.

There's much more to it than that, but from my own experiences that's how it usually is.  I've never personally had AP round Hellcats, but I've used Hellcats before and I have friends who tell me about them and I'm pretty sure it's similar to how I described it.

As a closing statement, in a unit to unit comparison, yes the Axis equivalents are better than the Allied equivalents, which does force the Allies to be more tactical with their units, but that's not a bad thing.  For some people (me included) it's more fun to be highly tactical with our units, so there's nothing wrong with having slightly inferior units as the Allies.  Who knows, I might be the only one who thinks this way, but I'm just voicing my opinions.

[deadbolt]

i really lol at light vehichle debate. ac's can own. iht = bang bus. anyone forgettin atht? also pumas rarely ever get hit and hotchkiss penetrates everythin.

[bbsmith]

 Even if the ATG hits you, there's no need to panic since you've got skirts.

AT guns don't suffer penalties against skirts.

[fallensoldier7]

Don't skirts give a health bonus or something along those lines?  More health helps against ATGs.

[AmPM]

Skirts provide a big bonus vs handheld AT, they provide a small bonus vs other tanks, they still got owned by ATGs.

[bbsmith]

Don't skirts give a health bonus or something along those lines?  More health helps against ATGs.

Skirts give a -25% Penetration and Damage decrease from Infantry AT
and a -10% Damage from Tanks.
It doesn't help against AT guns.

[puddin]

First of, you might hate me, you mgiht like me, But i have played a ton of games, done alot of strats, and while unorthodox,  they can get a lot done and live to tell about it, and thats the goal of this PERSISTENCY mod.

Also, I am not a RDG guy, Never have bee, I play the game and see how it "Feels"  You can tell me that this numebr and that number...  IT doesn;t matter, If it feels like shit, Its shit.  IF it feels like gold, I am rich bitch.


Look, Linial on many cases is right.  On other hes wrong.  Hes looking at the mod as a whole and not singling units out as much.  THis is what i mean.

This is a What kind of mod?  PERSISTENCY.

Look at the leaderboards, What kind of persistency do we have?  

A hell of alot more axis then allied.  On many fronts.  

Many of your arguments are all frauds, Linaols and the counters.  Most arguments are based off of doctrine choices.  That means the Doctrines and those choices need work, Not the balence as a whole.  

IN this mod, there are a few things that are kind above all else.
1.) Ability to not be seen. ( Keeps all units alive longer)
--a.) Sniper, If you can;t see it, you can;t kill it. Also can scout in rare occasions.  
--b.) Storms.  Amazing units, Hard to see, Blitz helps them immensly.
--c.) Pak38.  Used  to suprise units, Fire 2 shots, Place elsewhere, No offmaps to worry about unless its seem, and 1st shot is like a Free AP round all day long.
--d.) 6Lber.  Much like pak without bonus.  Can;t see it?  Think the flank is open to armor, "Oh Shit moments commence"

2.) Ability to break suppression
--a.) Commando smoke... God this ability is great, Sucks it takes 300 plus seconds to recharge but it works for small engagements as oh shit buttons.  
--b.) Fireup.  GReat ability but the exhaustion after makes it a shit ability.  PLus the dmg taken as you charge forward... Offsets the ability as you get closer in general with fireup, Greater dmg taken, and therefore, your squad is dead....
--c.) Assult nades.  Unintended effect?  Amzing abilty that never stops chasing the squad...


All of those units have longer livces because of that ability, YEs it can be negated, But not before you know its in the general area... So in this PERSISTENCY mod, the reacation to these units survivability is greater and the the ability to retain vet on all of these units has become greater as well.

a 57 hgets 1 shot, MAYBE 2 with Ap rounds...  I had to run them in pairs to do any decent amount of dmg with Tank reapers and With ap rounds, i had 2 shots bounce off a KT, KT shoots At gun, kills it, 3rd shot barly penetrates front armor...  So for that amazing powerful at gun, Massive problem. Also, a 57 is scouted byu my many units, ITs not fast, so when you know its in an area, Normally thats half the At on the field, so its a safe bet you can sneak through and not have to worrk about much other AT...

Thats the weakness of a 57.  Such as when the Longer range Mortor of Where is hitting a 57, A Mortor HT is and then moves, that At gun just got negated by a slower moving force without any special ability other then keepign their eyes open.  

the 50mm ATHT is even better because it can relocate faster to help flank tanks,  and just does not get 1st shot bonuses.  

Its not that the 57 is bad, But you will never keep vet on it, and its a big target,m Eailiy spoted and killed and in a where intellegence is key, seeing before moving is what wins battles, and the 57 is always seen....

Onto other Arguments.

Tanks... Oh Joy, I am an allied tanker first and foremost, Loved them since the start axis too but allies were the underdogs.  

Allies get bested in every aspect.  When has an Allied tank struck fear into any axis player?  It has to be vet 3.  Oh shit vet 3 shermans are godlike with dmg and Godlike pershing vet 3,...  When was the last time anyone here saw either?  

Shermans... GEt killed so easily even with OBM that it seems to be a waste to buy vet, Same as cromwells.  YEs the Serman is ncie with upgrades... Kind of... They cost a ton.  

Shermans need to be run in pairs to do much dmg, and even the they are slower then the Tank destroyers, so they take more dmg in front of at guns and get killed by Fausts, Tanks, and anything else that spits on it.  

Tank destroyers... Kill any tank...  For 20 pop cap and 0 Infantry kiling power besides running them over?  The M18s 50 call is also pretty worthless as it seems not to do much.

MEanwhile outfit a P4, panther with skirts and an MG and suddenly you have an all around tank, that can take on many different aspects of the game.  What gives it trouble?  IT seems a 57?  Not really, you see it before it it fires and don;t run into it...


I could continue but i am sure many have stopped reading by now.  

I think there is some decent balence.  True balence is unatainable.  But it depends on what kind your going for...  BEcause right now, No vet, No doctrines, the balence is pretty solid.  

What you have to remeber is that people want vetted uinits, it helps.  Its minor in most cases but its enough to make that luck roll help more.  

10% less penetraion... You get more brave around an AT gun.. it makes you feel better in game.  

Right now, allies get Ripped apart in almost ever aspect, Yes you can win games as allies, BUt you have to rebuild your company 90% of the time...  

As axis, you don;t lost most of your company often, it gets away many times...


Currently, With no war map ( Hell take your time guys, we all know you have good plans and when it comes to fruition it will be amazing) the goal is wins and vet right now... And that mgiht not ever change even with a good war map.  

People would honestly like vet 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 over a war map more then likly as the vet units make bragging rights and people to set goals.  

Everyone has a different goal.
To win the battle?
To vet up unit X or Y.
To stop on noobs!
To rage at all teamates.
To use the most op unit.
To win the war.... Is not nor has it really been that high up there.


In a mod that promotes the main different between the Vgame and the Mod being the Persistency...  The axis have the ability to have greater ammounts of it.  

Most people who play allies, Either keep vet and Lose, OR win the game and lose an army... Thats the life of a USA and some Brit companies...  The win lose ratios of many players tell that story...

[AmPM]

Actually Puddin, in many cases a well handled TD + any other sort of AT will hand a P4 its ass. It's also cheap, pop cap is important, but so is cost, if the enemy runs out of units first you win.

[Speigass]

Whermacht main advantage over all is infantry, esspecialy in its current form.

Lets take grenadier squad.
1. Non doctrinal and rather inexpensive (that means used by everyone).
2. high health per man + medkits on cooldown + vet1 regen (that means can be used over and over and some more unless squad members are killed)
3. Very powerfull 1 man upgrades: lmg and pzshrek (so in the end even at 1 man and no zeal grens can be used)
4. Panzershrek once again... Reliable, non doctrinal, high damage and penetration man based AT weapon. Easy way to support your AT capabilities both in attack and defence. Piats, bazookas or stickies do not allow to chase tanks with success, you can not expect to hit or penetrate armor at max range. Kiting shreks is very though job, kiting piats, stickies or bazookas are not at all.

[Mysthalin]

In actuality, the balance is much better than it has ever been in any itteration of EiR or EiRR.
The SOLE problem of the US that you listed and I agree with is the lack of units. It gets boring after a while, because you're forced to use the same kind of spam - as has been said, you will not win with a balanced US company.

What you listed as OP in the axis faction is generally getting nerfs or being removed overall from the game. Improved Barrels? Goodbye. Auto-cannon Panzershrek from Conviction? The door's down the hall and to the left. Zeal? Well that's staying, but at least the brits have it with them for now as well. Hopefully it will also be removed soon enough, though.
Veterancy? Have in mind only US vet has been toned down thusfar. There's still a vet rework in progress - WM veterancy isn't excluded from it. Stuff will be nerfed, and it will be nerfed considerably .

P.S. Your comparison of 88 against sherman as 57 vs KT is slightly flawed. If you had said 88 against pershing as 17 pdr vs KT, it'd have been a bit more objective .

[lionel23]

Yeah I should have said Pershing in retrospect, was typing that at work and had to run out and only did it occur to me I should have said that, was just thinking at the time 'most common tank' and of course Sherman pops up in my head, heh.

Well, that is good those are being addressed, the question is how long till that is done, as I recall the Staghound vet bug hasn't been addressed yet either right? I guess this topic is more my opinion on the current state of things, as yeah the US does have a lack of units/variety problem, and I tend to only make US companies that make use of my strengths instead of trying to cover any weaknesses since balanced US companies have a hard time dealing with everything.

And yeah the vet rework only for US is killing me, I miss how M18s used to be useful, now its just a weaker, fast 'm10' instead of the long range counterpart it was prior to the vet rework.

Anyway good post Mys, guess you sum up my main frustrations and problems I see, and after talking with AmPM last night about some things, I made a mistake in saying 'axis' and meant to say 'Terror/blitz' as I just equate germans being germans, while allies you can break down to US or brits.  And all I seem to fight anymore are terror and blitz companies, I haven't found a defensive or PE player in months, honestly  My rangers miss their blood they used to spill! Heh.

[Mysthalin]

Try playing misten and his omniscience company. You'll curse the day paks got back the ability to move while cloaked!

[Evilnrg]

i can play my def company if you want

[Mysthalin]

i can play my def company if you want

*hissss*
go play it, and stop sacrificing tigers!
*hissss*

[Evilnrg]

i stopped using tigers already

[Killer344]

Well, that is good those are being addressed, the question is how long till that is done, as I recall the Staghound vet bug hasn't been addressed yet either right?

Dude, you have access to the Dev's Forum/Balance Advisor's Forum and you weren't aware already that stuff was going to be nerfed/adressed? lolz.

[lionel23]

Well I don't want to say anything from there on this public post, but wasn't the answer basically 'Soon (TM)?' 

[Killer344]

So.. you are complaining about something that you already know it was going to be fixed.... creepy.

[lionel23]

Do you not learn to read the post?  Do you not read the original message?  READ THE SUBJECT LINE.

I'm asking for people's opinion on the state of Allied (in particular US as how the discussion turned to) compared to Axis armies (well, more of a focus on wehr Blitz/Terror as PE and Brits are okay as is, but that's what it turned to from overall Axis faction instead).