Luftwaffe doctrine rework plans?

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[Groundfire]

So im trying to resist the urge to write up a nasty post on why Fortress Europe is so god damn overpowered, and if someone has a copy of the new Luftwaffe Doctrine rework sheet so i can see the new rendition of FE, that would save the fourms another "QQ balance this shit" thread, and alot of my time.

I would be absolved to keep my mouth shut if I knew that it was going to be changed.

[Mysthalin]

It's not so much about FE being OP, it's about flakvierlings being OP from the get go.

They have little to no scatter, 50 percent accuracy at maximum range and they kill a guy in 3 shots.

Meaning that even if they HAD scatter, they'd kill two guys a burst(2 second burst, 6 rounds per second) at maximum range.

Add the immense suppression... And yeah.

Though I don't disagree that 61 range vet 3 FE vierlings are stupid.

[AmPM]

They weren't OP to begin with, they are easily removed with an ATG. Its the extended range, like the extended range on anything that allows it to outrange its counters...

[EliteGren]

There is exactly 1 player in this mod actively using this T4.
Either way all range buffs that "change" units will be removed with the rework.

[Mysthalin]

They weren't OP to begin with, they are easily removed with an ATG. Its the extended range, like the extended range on anything that allows it to outrange its counters...

Don't you think that attempting that will usually lead to disaster, as vierlings are generally built around 88s, which have a habit of killing ATGs quite quickly indeed, or at least in a symbiotic bond with an MHT.

[Groundfire]

There is exactly 1 player in this mod actively using this T4.
Either way all range buffs that "change" units will be removed with the rework.

which is why I want this nipped in the ass before ppl catch on.

[bbsmith]

There is exactly 1 player in this mod actively using this T4.
Either way all range buffs that "change" units will be removed with the rework.

And how did you come to that conclusion?

[AmPM]

They weren't OP to begin with, they are easily removed with an ATG. Its the extended range, like the extended range on anything that allows it to outrange its counters...

Don't you think that attempting that will usually lead to disaster, as vierlings are generally built around 88s, which have a habit of killing ATGs quite quickly indeed, or at least in a symbiotic bond with an MHT.

Ok, so now they have a Flak36 and Flak38 and an MHT to keep you from mortaring both....darn, I mean 1 unit should obviously counter that combination...wait, artillery does...

[3rdCondor]

wtf is fortress europe? 

[Demon767]

There is exactly 1 player in this mod actively using this T4.
Either way all range buffs that "change" units will be removed with the rework.

which is why I want this nipped in the ass before ppl catch on.

maybe you shouldnt have posted it here, i bet 99% people didnt know about this until now.

[NightRain]

Imma get Fortress Europe right away, thanks for telling me how OP it is. Cya on the battlefield!

[Smokaz]

Exactly which unit other than the VET 3 flakvierling is op with fortress europe? lol

The insane range bonus is from its veterancy, +15 flat out range at vet 3 is sparta, madness.

[Mysthalin]

They weren't OP to begin with, they are easily removed with an ATG. Its the extended range, like the extended range on anything that allows it to outrange its counters...

Don't you think that attempting that will usually lead to disaster, as vierlings are generally built around 88s, which have a habit of killing ATGs quite quickly indeed, or at least in a symbiotic bond with an MHT.

Ok, so now they have a Flak36 and Flak38 and an MHT to keep you from mortaring both....darn, I mean 1 unit should obviously counter that combination...wait, artillery does...

Too bad it doesn't. Have you ever TRIED howitzering, or even worse - callioping a vierling?

Even the almighty creeping barrage is lackluster at killing vierlings, and that's being optimistic.

And yeah - more than one unit being used at a time by most people. That's just 18 popcap, with all three units - I'm fairly certain most people can spare that at the point they've got the battlefield control to set up an 88 and vierling.

[Smokaz]

The counter to the flakvierling, the flak 88, or both of them together.. is mortar smoke. Simple mortar smoke, either from offmaps or a mortar. If the area is completely open, you have to do like this:

Get 2 mortars
1: Mortar smoke position X within new mortar smoke range of 88/flakvierling
2: Move mortar 2 into position, pop mortar smoke on 88/flakvierling
3: Rush 88/flakvierling with RRs/piats/flamers/stickies/grenades

I seldom have problems handling a 88 if I know it is coming or learn that I am up against a doctrine with 88s early game.

[Smokaz]

I also think you get frustrated by airborne actually having problems with vehicles, groundfire. The 57mm is much more reliable in hitting stuff like armored cars, which you probably know.

If FE forces a AB player to use both 57mms (airdropper or not) to support his RR's instead of just RR's thats just good for the game. You wouldnt fight pumas en masse with 2 RR squads either.

[AmPM]

Smokaz actually has a point there, my AB only use 4 RR squads now, and rely on 57mm's for main AT.

RR's are there to prevent flanking and protect my advances.

[Tymathee]

I don't tend to have too many issues with 36's or 88's. If I can't crack 'em, ignore 'em, they can only cover so much anyway. Also most players tend to bunch their stuff round them so just keep hammering away with artillery use a mortar. flank the 88 with a sherman, use a sniper smoke + flame engies. The mortar emplacement is great vs flak36's and 88's.

but yeai agree, the +15 range is just sick, id ont know why it wasn't taken out a long time ago along with the range buffs on the tanks.

[Smokaz]

RRs also are largely uneffected by smoke (ask Fallen, his soul was reborn into the light of the airborne spam when I told him) because of their scatter, meaning all you have to do be safe from anything axis have other than grenades, mortars and flames is to mortar smoke wherever you are doing your hit'n run.

Good tactics or too complicated? Take a pick.

Btw as sick as 15+ range is its the only thing that makes the flakvierling viable other than as a anti infantry guard next to the 88, without this range it has no independant role. Only SE has flamers meaning airborne covered by smoke cant by hit by most PE weapons.

Also a 88 next to a flakvierling is even more vulnerable to mortar smoke, allowing both weapons to die in the same attack, but being equally strong against people who feed into their strong points, direct defense.

Mortars, spotters, snipers.. field defense builders. Utility units. If your company lacks all of these unit types its pretty gimmicky. AB has no excuse to not field a mortar with their supply drop.

[Demon767]

dunno why RR range hasnt been taken out aswell

[Killer344]

The range bonus is going to be removed, like most range buffs that can cause trouble to their supposed counters, that doctrine isn't 100% done so I can't know what's going to happen with this T4...