Bold suggestion (yet another)

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[lionel23]

Thanks Tym for your feedback, not a raw numbers person sadly (no access to RGDs or whatever and the like), but AP rounds do bounce, not against most medium tanks, maybe very few times against heavies like panthers/tigers, but they do bounce way too much against super heavies, and don't justify their 40 MU cost due to how ineffective they are.

[Calstifer]

off topic... people should we remove heavy tanks or not! Eneough of this childish squabling, we're (supposidly) adults and we will talk and act like them in this topic.

[lionel23]

Guess my post was deleted, so I will post again since no one has the decency to inform me why my posts keep getting deleted again, despite me asking about it.

I guess I'll answer you since that what it seems is the case, I'm for eliminating super heavys until doctrine choices are in.

[Demon767]

No!. Heavy tanks are not hard to counter!. you say things like you throw all your AT at 1 heavy and there always one left that you dont have enough AT for. if you lost your AT. its your fault! not OP Axis. They are easy. Slow and easy to counter when you have Teammates that are capable of communication and a lil thing called tactics before any heavy comes out, say i dunno, kill there mortars and Pak guns?.

Wittman nearly killed a Tiger with 1 RR squad. it had to go for repairs, only got 5 inf kills which was couple from those airborne that did it. wipped out the rest of the axis supporting inf. HMG.Mortar.Grenideir squad. wittman had the same thing basically. Airborne RR, HMG and Mortar. And he wiped out that whole Axis side.

KT is even Easier. Damage engine with an AP round AT gun or a Firefly work great against a very slow unit that takes time to get out of situations.

/thread you just fail.

[lionel23]

Heavys are fine, they're in line to be countered by dedicated AT and combined arms, I misread Cal's question.

What I am in favor of is banning of SUPER HEAVIES (Only KT/Jags), I'm fine with Panthers and Tigers!

[AmPM]

KT's and Jadg's are both easy to counter.

With AP rounds you are almost 100% going to penetrate a KT, nearly the same vs the Jadg. Even BOUNCING they deal about 90 damage, more than a penetrating Sherman.

Want to kill those tanks? Move up with ATG cover, and stickies/brens. Its game over for far less cost.

Seriously, stop failing, you have longer range, do more damage per shot, and cost 1/4 the pop per ATG. There is no excuse not to win.

Also, check this out, dont line all your ATGs up to face the front armo!!! Zomg, move them so they are space apart, especially on the Jadg, if it rotates to face one, the other hits its side.

[lionel23]

Where it was there was no possibility to flank shot as it came with hedge cover on the side and axis units watching the hedges, so the jadg sits there and kills everything.  Only so much you can do in what is really the most 'open' part of the map without conceding the entire field.

And again I say BS on AP rounds always 100% penetrating a Jadg, I'll perform some tests tomorrow to verify that, but I bet you I can create at least a couple of bounces, that should negate your 'almost 100%' statement then?  Bounced barely shave any health off the already formidable Jadg from that game and several others I witnessed, but this one game was decided by two jadgs just hunting ATGs and tank destroyers and crushing infantry, a lot for a single, albeit power and expensive, tank.

[bbsmith]

with AP rounds
20m its over 100% chance
40m its about 80% chance
60m its about 75% chance

[lionel23]

Ah so that would explain it, then at long range, a Jadg is then reasonably safe at sniping ATGs since the AP rounds now have reduced chances to penetrate and thus bounce?

By the way Bob, may I ask where you got this info so I can refer to some actual numbers and not have to be shouted down by everyone for my 'wild' claims of what possibly can't happen? Or is this something only a dev member can see with access to the code?

[bbsmith]

Jagd's don't have 60 range.

http://www.coh-stats.com/

[lionel23]

Well it was within range to shoot the ATG at whatever range it was, so what range is that? Would it be 40m then? We all saw on the allied teams 4 ATGs using AP rounds all bounce 3 volleys each off a Jadg with no penetration.

Some very, very lucky dice rolls I would say if that's only a 20% chance to bounce... what... 12 AP round shots? Well, diminishing returns since every volley from a jadg instant killed an ATG... so whatever number that would be.

[RikiRude]

AP rounds need unlimited uses with longer cool down. bring in your heavy tank, have them pop AP rounds, pull back, let them fade away then blow them up.

[lionel23]

Problem though Riki, it's only on the original crew, so hit it with a mortar, snipe it, infantry assault it and leave it... if it was like a pak gun and retained it, then yeah a longer cool down would work, but on the original crew that can also be tough (and I am not saying IMPOSSIBLE, for the record).

[Smokaz]

Solution: Make a "new" 57mm unit (dev: argghh) that incorporates ap rounds as a cooldown ability. Add the muni cost of ap rounds +10/20something on top of the 57mm (to reflect that it is no longer on cooldown but has limitless uses) and just make that cooldown reasonable, say 2-3 minutes.

[lionel23]

Sorry Smokaz (call me dumb if you like), but could you clarify to me why a new unit has to be created in this instance? Wouldn't it just be better and maybe simplier (if it's possible with the dev team) to just edit the ability since only the US ATG has that ability and no one else?

[Calstifer]

I am persuaded, i change sides, topic can be locked if people dont want to talk about it anymore.

[RikiRude]

here's the thing though, what smokaz is saying if there is a new unit, then you don't have to worry if the crew gets killed and it gets recrewed.


just like how paks keep cloak even when they are recrewed.

[NightRain]

17 pndr, button + 6 pndr. Heavy tank? No problem

AS several times said, why focuse fire the heavy tank when the problem lays around it? Infantry, other vehicles which are way easier to destroy than the frontal part of the KT. Without that support 1 unit of TD called M10 can kill it by circle strafing. Hell one Tetty can do the same thing too.

[Demon767]

Nightrain is exactly right. We have forgotten about a unit which is farely under rated for the Brits. The 17pounder. which is a great counter to any S/Heavy tank you might encounter.

[fallensoldier7]

Except you can't move it, so you have to lure the heavy tank into the 17 pounder.  When the 17 pounder fires, the Axis player will know it's there, so unless you can button it the first time the heavy tank comes into range, you most likely won't be able to get a chance to get many shots off.

Having 2 could work though.  A 17 pounder creep would work better since indirect fire doesn't hurt 17 pounders as much as they hurt regular ATGs.  Just keep one set up while moving the other one up, and keep alternating which one you move up.  Would be a very slow creep though since it takes like 30 seconds for a 17 pounder to pack up.