Demon767/Duntroon/LuckyGER vs Johnball/WindcriesMary/LordMalgoroth

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[Demon767]

Gritty battle for Hill331. Allies show the Axis Stompers that they will stand and fight

notably hardest game ive played and very awesome from start to finish.
Game went Right down to the wire

http://www.filefront.com/15327409/EuropeInRuinsBattle.sga
http://www.filefront.com/15327425/temp.rec

[Calstifer]

Very good game, good to seee it up.

[Malgoroth]

You bothered to post this? I felt it was a stomp from the very beginning. Vet allied units took the hill early and the retarded spawn points on probably the worst map in the game kept some players mostly isolated. I was surprised that it was as "close" as it was, but the victor was never in question. Well played though. I enjoyed ambushing that sniper on the way to the middle with my blob and vet hunting it. Felt good.

[TheWindCriesMary]

You bothered to post this? I felt it was a stomp from the very beginning.

 I have to agree with Malgoroth here, this was a terrible game that could not be less worthy of a replay or a shoutcast.

1. First off, one of the main requirements of a replay/shoutcast is a high level of play from both sides.

Right from the beginning I was a dead fish with my head cut off. By contrast, Duntroom played a brilliant first few minutes (and subsequent hour plus) which essentially dictated the outcome of the battle within the first quarter of the game. As for the rest of my team, while I think they no doubt fared better than myself there were some very bad mistakes made that just lowered the bar on this game completely. I usually have a rule where I don't post games of one team getting manhandled, but thats a personal rule. More universally, you don't usually post games where one side gets manhandled like that and then go for the additional full monty by saying it should be shoutcasted! The sheer merciless hunger of it!

 2. Secondly, the lag was absoloutely absurd in that game. Duntroom's name came up for a vote kick about 6 times, and frankly it was tempting to vote yes sometimes. Not just because we were being massacred, although that played through my head, but also because I thought just maybe it would end the horror of trying to path tanks on a map completely unsuited for EiR. This is another reason why this game shouldn't even be here.

 3. Lastly, the map was horrible. Tanks would drive down a path one way, and then when it came time to back up would take a completely different path. Coupled with the lag, this meant that the man with the hand held at was king. Now granted even if the game were lag free I have no doubt the outcome of the battle wouldn't have been much different (since the poor level of play on my end would still have been there), but there is a big difference between suggesting a game where one side is ultimately outplayed should be posted/shoutcasted, and suggesting a game where one side is not only outplayed, but also lagged to hell, frustrated even more by an absurd map, and clearly not communicating should be shoutcasted.

  

 All in all, this was neither an awesome game, nor did it go down to the wire. The only reason it even had the appearance of being close is that it was so laggy, and the map so huge and cluttered that it seemed like you didn't control most of the map even when you had vastly more units to use (us[me] having squandered so many of ours so early on).

 Poor game on our part.

 -Wind

[Malgoroth]

There was the epicycle though at the end. It might be worth it to watch and fast forward to the end so you can see my motorcycle take out a bren squad and some support crews.

[Calstifer]

Hmm i didnt get any lag...

[Demon767]

well wind you dont have to like it, but it was an awesome game that went to the wire.
and btw you had more sectors under your control.

[TheWindCriesMary]

 All in all, this was neither an awesome game, nor did it go down to the wire. The only reason it even had the appearance of being close is that it was so laggy, and the map so huge and cluttered that it seemed like you didn't control most of the map even when you had vastly more units to use (us[me] having squandered so many of ours so early on).

 It was an awesome game to you because you won, not because it was actually a good game. The truest sign of a really good game is when even the losing team goes "yeah, that was a really good game". That happens when the game is close, both sides play well, and the outcome is not apparent for the vast majority of the battle.

 No one on our side of the game felt the game was close, and like Malgoroth said the outcome was very shortly in doubt from within the first 10 minutes.

 There should be a new rule in these forums, games can only be posted by the losing team. Then you would see far more "good games" being posted, then "we won therefore this is a good game" ones.

 -Wind

[Demon767]

John8ball said it was an Awesome game, he watched the replay of it again. just cuz u guys had rep against a team that seemed apparent to lose which shrouds your judgement.

Thanks for saying who wins though, bravo.

[TheWindCriesMary]

John8ball said it was an Awesome game, he watched the replay of it again. just cuz u guys had rep against a team that seemed apparent to lose which shrouds your judgement.

Thanks for saying who wins though, bravo.

 I would disagree with the conclusion that we had "rep against a team that seemed apparent to lose." All the players on both teams were on equal footing going into the battle, especially because Duntroom is an account played by two people and one of those people is very skilled and knows what he is doing to a high degree.

 I know it seems glamorous to trump this game up to a "omg hahaha we beat this team and our team was soo uneven" but not only is that disingenuous to the game that was actually played, it's disingenuous to the fact that both teams had good players and the game inevitably came down to which side performed better at that given moment. I would say the only wild card is LuckyGER, and as even a summary watching of the replay can confirm he outplayed me by a mile.

 So I think it's high time that pretense was dropped.

 Furthermore, to claim a game went to the wire there has to be one major criteria met: the game actually has to go down to the wire. Trying to justify posting this replay under the guise of "omg it was so close" when the last 5 minutes of the battle saw the axis reduced to 1 player with a panther, and 2-3 support teams incapable of capping, while the allies had 2 players in with 5-6 squads of infantry (some vet 3, some vet 2, and ample at) is altogether transparent. Furthermore, with the final scores showing a landslide killing spree on the part of the victors... that's far from close. Close is when the last 10 minutes of the game can decide everything, and both sides unanimously agree it was anyone's fight until a critical moment.

 -Wind
 

 

 

[Demon767]

it came down to the wire, because either team could of won, Johnball could of rushesd my spawn camp, took out my last cappers, then he would just need ot cap with his mortar teams which he was doing. we had nothing to stop his panther, we were lucky we won against against sopposebly Axis OP tanks kingtiger (not agreeing with them though), panthers, constant nebel fire and Axis support spam. also not having all the map so you guys had more pop cap then us, thats what makes it a good game to me, agasint all those odds we still prevailed by the skin of our teeth

[Calstifer]

" All the players on both teams were on equal footing going into the battle, especially because Duntroom is an account played by two people and one of those people is very skilled and knows what he is doing to a high degree.

 

Im one man, i dont share my account. I sometimes to great i sometimes to crap...

[TheWindCriesMary]

it came down to the wire, because either team could of won, Johnball could of rushesd my spawn camp, took out my last cappers, then he would just need ot cap with his mortar teams which he was doing. we had nothing to stop his panther, we were lucky we won against against sopposebly Axis OP tanks kingtiger (not agreeing with them though), panthers, constant nebel fire and Axis support spam. also not having all the map so you guys had more pop cap then us, thats what makes it a good game to me, agasint all those odds we still prevailed by the skin of our teeth

 Either team could not have won because your side had quite a considerable amount of infantry, whereas malgoroth (john was annihilated at this point i believe, can someone confirm) had only support weapons which you know very well cap extremely slow. Also, you are well aware that your team had an atg and a vet 3 piat squad, not to mention multiple squads capable of buttoning. You are a very good player, please do not try to pretend you would have been helpless vs a panther in these circumstances. I have a real hard time buying you would somehow become helpless the second a situation becomes hypothetical.

 Nevertheless, let us say for some crazy reason you fell asleep during the game and became baffled on how to defeat a panther with 2-3 bren squads, an atg, and a vet 3 piat squad. The simple fact of the matter is, hill3339 is impossibly huge. A single tank is simple not enough to stop 5-6 squads from surround-capping, particularly when the only thing the tank team has are 2-3 mgs and 2 mortars stuck in the middle of the map.

 I understand the need to try and justify posting this replay, and frankly you have every right to post whatever replays you want.  But have the courtesy to call it for what it is. In even modestly capable hands, ( a criteria well below the qualifications of you and Duntroom), this game was a done deal the second it became obvious the axis were playing poorly. You know as much as I do that when 2 out of 3 teammates are anihilated (the 1st being done 15 minutes early, the second having only a bike for the last 5-6), and when that remaining player is without infantry to speak of, and out of position, then the game is not "down to the wire". Trying to sell it otherwise is just downplaying the fact that you wanted to post a strong victory you were happy about, but didn't want to make it look like you were showing off a smash. Hence the patting yourself on the back bit about "against all odds", and the dramatic screenplay about how close it was when the people who actually lost felt otherwise.

 I don't mind losing, I do it all the time. But I can't stand it when somebody tries to play the propaganda game about a replay. Losing is tough enough without someone making it out to seem like they were the hero of some hollywood action movie.

 And on a final note about courtesy, I'm not sure what you have heard from John since the game, but throughout the battle our entire team was miserable about our performance. We knew we didn't give it our best, and felt disappointing we didn't give you guys a better showing.  Like I said, as the victor you have every right to post any game you want, but courtesy would dictate getting the opinions of the people you beat before you do. Its kicking a guy when hes down, and it's unbecoming.

-Wind

[Demon767]

Mate, I said it what it was to me, what it was to me, duntroon, LuckyGER and Johnball was an awesome game.

i had 2 infantry to cap, a mortar squad and a 3 man riflenade squad. if he took them at the very start of us trying to backcap (at this point you controlled nearly all the map) but i used my unit smartly, got around the panther, and the rest is history.

What i hate is how i must defend myself becuase a game you lost. most of the time the loosing side comes in and says it was stupid blah blah blah. i wish sometimes they take it for what it was, a team has to lose, sometimes its not always you.

johnball is my brother,hes right next to me, he enjoyed this game thoroughly and so did I, even He said it was down to the wire, he knew above else that he could win, he still had infantry to cap with, he could of retreated his support crew and mass cap aswell. theres so many possibilities. at the end i only had 2 man mortar placement crew.

and where all mates, i dont take lightly saying propaganda, i have nothing at all against you, nor do i want to play down your skill. If i feel it was a down to the wire game, i shouldnt have to justify whats my opinion of down to the wire. It seems like you and mal are having problems loosing to Duntroon 4/12 and Lucky 2/8 w/l against your positive w/l ratios cuz the rest of us enjoyed the game

[TheWindCriesMary]

 Actually Demon right from the first word of this thread I established that the defeat was nothing more or less than poor playing on my part and on the part of my allies (although to a less degree). Right now what you words are doing is ignoring my actual complaint against this replay (that one side played very poorly, and thus it makes for a poor replay) and substituting it with a scarecrow cliche gripe about me somehow worrying that you are playing down my skill, or that i'm mad about losing.

 And for the love of god please abandon this prepackaged little jab you keep throwing out there about Mal or I somehow resenting losing to Duntroom and LuckyGER. Frankly I resent the condescending nonsense idea that just because Duntroom has a negative ratio, that makes him a bad player and that any victory he gets is unlikely or surprising. Stop acting like it does. I've said it from day one in this thread, he played damned well that game and far better than I did by a mile and a half and you know what? I've seen him do it a few times since then as well. All I keep hearing from you is about how amazing it was that they managed to beat me and Malgoroth and John8, and how surprised everyone was, when frankly you seem to be the only one who actually was surprised. They were the better players that game and there is no other way to interpret it and between the two of us, there is only one person here who is underestimating them. Frankly if I were them I would tell you to stuff it, but thats just me.

  And this brings me back to the main point I've been making this whole thread, and yet which invariably gets sidestepped to go on some cliche about "I shouldn't have lost to negative ratios". That point is: why this game makes for a poor replay, and why it is surprising it was posted.

 A good replay is when both sides unanimously agree that the game was close. It is when even the losers feel the game was touch and go, with moments of brilliance on both sides to be proud of. It is when both sides play well, and afterwards can agree that this was a game that showcases what CoH is supposed to be all about.

 By contrast, this was a game where both sides do not agree the game was close. It is also a game where for the entire duration, the chat/ventrillo of one side was filled with frustration (at our mistakes first and foremost,  but also at the lag, and especially at the map) and where everything seemed to go wrong. We did not play to a level we felt we were capable of, and more than losing, more than wallowing in what we felt was a poor map, that is what was most disappointing: the knowledge that we weren't meeting our potential.

  So to post this game in the way you did, that is the problem with what you have done here. Read the words I have written and understand losing is something no one on our team was at odds with, because we knew we had earned that loss. But then to have that loss showcased and misrepresented as something it wasn't - that is something else entirely.

 Frankly speaking, a good replay is one even the losers would post. So the next time you win and want to post what you think was a "close" game, ask yourself this simple question:

 1. If I hadn't won this game, would I still want to post it?

  I can tell you one thing for certain: if you hadn't won this game, this thread wouldn't be here right now.

 That's some food for thought.

-Wind

[Demon767]

i really dont understand what your trying to get at here Wind your not making any sence.
i consider beating you a very high feat, but even more Duntroon beat your basically, he did very well against 3 vets. am i wrong to say he shouldnt be showed that he is coming of age in EIR environment.

its just you and mal that dont like the replay, rest of us liked it. rest of us enjoyed the game.

hey guess what, stop thinking your me, you dont know me, if we woulda lost, johnball woulda posted it. FYI

btw if you think im sidetracking some quesitons in your essay, keep in mind that im skimming your long *wind*ed responses.

Very simple, 4-6 people liked the game.
the underdogs won

nuth said. look mate just stop posting this is pointless as you have already ruined by saying who won. mission accomplished, obviously  you have done what you set out to do in the first place anyways. how u like words being put in your mouth now.

[Killer344]

No, you can't lock it to have the last say.

[Demon767]

What you trying to continue the flame war? i locked it so some moderator doesnt have to do it for me, it was gonna happen neways. if hes gotten something else to say he can put it to PM. and this is my thread ill do what i wish.

[Killer344]

This has never been a flame war, you posted it to joke about some win you got and it pissed some people off, now hold off the storm.
Users being able to lock threads is just a bugged privilege, you don't get to do what to wish because this isn't your forum, neither your "thread".

[Demon767]

it wasnt a joke i was serious its just those two who participated didnt like it so they feel my thread with who wins and stuffing everything up

GET OUT OF MY THREAD

lol