Current state of PE

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[wildsolus]

Play 20 games as PE then post what's incredibly imbalanced with them.

Also, by your reasoning, if you play 20 games as PE you'll have like the 6th most experience with them this war. Then you can 'shout your head off and get things changed based on your own perceptions'

[Killer344]

I just explained him (well, they, PQ and Wind) in detail why basing all his arguments on what the leaderboard says is flawed. If he now wants to troll for the sake of it, he might need to find another forum where people are more willing to fullfill his needs =).

[Smokaz]

I wish people were forced to play 1 game of EIRR per forum post

[Staplerfahrer]

wildsolus and demon767,

You have no argument so you turn to bullshit to deflect.  GJ failing at proving a point.

Killer344,

It is obvious you did a search for 'leaderboard' and just copy/pasted all of that without reading or comprehending.  Most of what you copied tends to agree with me.

Actually personal experience and observation are the least reliable method for supporting a point, because they are highly subjective and variable according to the person who is using them. Anecdotal evidence is on the same level, objectively, as theorycrafting, and it basically becomes a "my opinion vs yours" situation.

So yes, there is a margin for error that needs to be taken into account when reffering to the leaderboards, but remember: the leaderboards aren't designed to show the BEST players of an army, but rather the players who play that faction the most and it is that distinction which makes them important as a tool in this discussion because we are lookign for a general trend: PE as a competitive army for the general public of the mod, not for the best players in the best circumstances. Who makes it on that list, therefore, and which players don't bother to play enough games to get on it for PE(notice the huge lack in crazy ratios on the PE boards) says alot about how good the army actually is.

And try to say that somehow all of that pointing in the same direction is somehow not relevant, or useful in a discussion about the overall appeal/potential of the PE army in the current mod environment. It is not the be all and end all evidence to open and shut the case, but it is an excellent starting point and very valuable supporting evidence.

onsidering we discuss balance of 4 different armies here, and none of us are in any way removed from our own subjective preferences etc., balance arguments that make some reference to independant date (data such as the leaderboard) are very useful because they ground the discussion a little more in support that can be verified objectively (A person can see what he wants to from a past game or experience, but its hard to see what you want to with the leaderboards due to their very limited and simplified reasonable applications).

Wow.... after reading it fully myself, you totally ignore their consensus

e've concluded that the leadership boards can be used as a means of identifying general patterns and or issues relevant to balance discussion.

ote]

[Killer344]

Lol, nice job taking the sentences out of context.

[deadbolt]

you fail at quoting

[Staplerfahrer]

Don't worry... I'll play again when I get home to install CoH.

I'm just plainly stating that there is obvious bias here, and not on my part.  I'm just pointing out the data trend and leaving out specifics.

People here have made anecdotal claims that PE is the most powerful, powerful in the right hands, and has fewer good players.  Data trends say otherwise.  And while Unknown stated he modified certain data points, it doesn't change the overall trend.

[Staplerfahrer]

Lol, nice job taking the sentences out of context.

I read the whole thing... you did not.  You just copy/pasted.

Their consensus of their discourse was that you cannot deny the leaderboards as a tool to identify trends, but must be taken with a grain of salt.

You're not taking it with a grain of salt, you're flat out discarding them.


I didn't even make a statement on balance.  I used the leaderboard to show how the data trend refuted the anecdotal bullshit people were spouting and still are.

[deadbolt]

unlike you i cba to read everythin, so sum it up for me mkay and ill give u my troll opinion

[Killer344]

You couldn't be more wrong, I don't know why I even waste my time with you honestly, everyone has realized it already; you plainly ignored the conclusion of what I just posted and took what you wanted:

We've concluded that the leadership boards can be used as a means of identifying general patterns and or issues relevant to balance discussion. But this should be done with extreme caution. For example, just because the PE is the least played faction does not necessarily mean they are underpowered. The problem lies in confounding factors; we never know what actually causes what.

That said, using this data in combination with observations and game statistics is the best way to proceed in any in-depth balance analysis.

PQ

Don't even waste time replying until you get into your head the bolded text. Your only source of info is the leaderboard.

You have, literally, 0% in game experience at the moment.

[Staplerfahrer]

OK then... we'll start with the basics of debate. 

Identify my argument.

[Unkn0wn]

And you know this how?  Where is your proof?  What he DID say was not clear.  How many users did he alter? Why did he alter them?  Which factions were they from?  How far were they altered?

I have consistently turned negative win/loss ratios around, and I can guarantee you this has affected a large amount of players from all sides. I did not keep track of the amount, how many users, nor the faction they played as that would be a waste of time.

They were altered because with wins and losses being displayed, new players, who generally tend to lose the majority of their first 10 games or so, would be further discriminated more than they already are. In addition,the display of wins and losses is an open door to stacking and stomping and on top of that needlessly increases the average amount of time it takes to get a game going (as often you'll be extremely picky on who you play with or against, based solely on their stats).  It's a 'stopgap' measure as in the longer run we intend on removing wins and losses from displaying in the launcher entirely. (They will still show on the leaderboard)

Wins and losses I find are generally not a reliable display of individual skill or faction strength in the first place as for one this is a team game and the performance of a team is more than the sum of its individuals. Second, there's far too many games going down with significant skill discrepancy. Maybe if we had automatch and players were matched up based on their skill level you could have reliable player stats being displayed.

It comes down to this, imagine if you used vCOHs custom game (non ranked) leaderboards (in the assumption they existed) to make an analysis of the game's state of balance. Ridiculous, indeed. So why do it for EIR? RTS games are generally balanced on the higher levels of play, not on the "casual" level of play.

Rough balance is primarily based on unit stats, we're long past that point now and I would say we're pretty much in the balance stage where things are 'finetuned' at best. In this phase of balance, a lot of the changes made are based on INTERsubjective analysis. (Taking into account experience, skill, etc)

[Demon767]

we just had a whole company reset, Unknown has delete some W/L ratios so theres one or more sectors that are out of whack, this is a chain! if one is ruined they all are ruined.

your by far not helping anything. The community as a whole have already come to a decison that PE is not UP anymore and we've already stated PE is not UP and we've already stated you cant use the Leaderboard for any proof all in this thread. Your weekend warrior opinion is faced of against people who actually play eirr considerably for many months or years.

1 man's blatant opinion will not change months of balancing by the community base. and nor will he have any respect from the community having not played the game.

a wise man once said: "Tits or GTFO"

[crimsonrabbit]

Ok, here's the thing w/ PE:

PE can fail horribly if you do not know wtf you are doing. HOWEVER, if you actually know the units and what they are used for and use them properly, then they can rape a lot. Every unit (besides the jagd) has only one specific purpose and they excel at that purpose, but other things they fail at.
For example, the marder is by far one of the best AT available because its damage is so evil and hard that it makes the paint melt off of pershings, yet it obviously fails horribly against anything else. Same w/ ACs and assault grens, they both are great anti inf, but they cant do anything against units past infantry/support weapon crews. In other words there is no jack of all trades unit in PE.

So basically, if the player uses the units correctly and what they are meant for (after scouting w/ schimmens), then that player can wreak havoc w/ PE. One other thing that should be remembered is that PE is good w/ flanking too since they are so mobile.

Also Staplerfahrer, the reason why PE has such little wins compared to other factions on the leaderboard is because not too many people play PE as much they play other factions....i think.
I believe the reason for this is because people love support weapons a lot which PE does not have.

[Staplerfahrer]

we just had a whole company reset, Unknown has delete some W/L ratios so theres one or more sectors that are out of whack, this is a chain! if one is ruined they all are ruined.

your by far not helping anything. The community as a whole have already come to a decison that PE is not UP anymore and we've already stated PE is not UP and we've already stated you cant use the Leaderboard for any proof all in this thread. Your weekend warrior opinion is faced of against people who actually play eirr considerably for many months or years.

1 man's blatant opinion will not change months of balancing by the community base. and nor will he have any respect from the community having not played the game.

a wise man once said: "Tits or GTFO"

Demon, just stop.  Its clear that you're not understanding and the language barrier might be playing a part in that.

When I played, I had about 100 games played as PE, and PE was not good at all.  That was the general consensus at the time and statistical data backed the general opinion.   'Choking on allied cock' was an apt description for the state of PE at the time.  But that was THEN, and a ton of stuff has changed.

So I ask if, despite changes, the status quo still exists.  And every response since has been anecdotal theorizing.  And I can barely find posts related to PE that are recent.

[Killer344]

I don't think anyone can remember all the changes we made to PE, we added some units, we buffed others, we nerfed some of the other factions. The only way to reach your own universal truth is to play and see for yourself .

[wildsolus]

When I played, I had about 100 games played as PE, and PE was not good at all.  That was the general consensus at the time and statistical data backed the general opinion.   'Choking on allied cock' was an apt description for the state of PE at the time.  But that was THEN, and a ton of stuff has changed.

So I ask if, despite changes, the status quo still exists.  And every response since has been anecdotal theorizing.  And I can barely find posts related to PE that are recent.

bolded parts are most important

I agree that PE wasn't good back when TOV came out/last time you played EIR.

However, every response to you has been "THEY ARE BETTER NOW" because....they are. Pricing has been balanced, new units have been introduced and some of the more powerful builds (with all doctrines) were found with the PE.

And I hope when you do play you smurf because I know a lot of players want to pound your face in.

[Demon767]

lol language barrier.

ok then, 2 can play at this game

back THEN i also had 20 wins and 120 losses. back THEN i also thought PE was UP. back THEN i needed to L2P.

This is now. Before i reset my PE company For the tournament i had 40Wins and 5 losses on my PE company

That enough evidence for you.

[Killer344]

Sigh, you should read what I posted Demon, PQ's and Wind's analisys on Leaderboards and subjective opinions.

[Demon767]

yea i read all of it, cuz this dam eastern front mod takes 3 hours to DL, unfortunately i forgot all i read, no doubt he did to lol.
Besides i was there when that thread came out haha. its all to true about leaderboards being used as evidence.
i was just using his formula of "BEFORE/NOW" theorycraft