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Author Topic: Churchill Mk VI  (Read 9741 times)
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DarkSoldierX Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3015



« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 10:37:44 pm »

Im going to revive this month old thread to avoid making a new one. The 80 fuel increase isnt really justified and isnt really worth it to go from a MKIV to VI. Should be a munitions upgrade, or make the fuel increase smaller to around 40 fuel more not the crazy 80. Especially since it only has better splash and slightly better pen. I heard the price was supposed to go down in the 0.7.4 hotfix but it seems it never did.

Thoughts?
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two words
atgs and fireflies
Looks who's butthurt
*waiting* 4 DarkSoldierNoobiX pops up to prove how much shit the T17 is penetrating KTs back and Jagd front and how much better the ac/puma is penetrating m10 rear  Cool Cool Cool
winisez Offline
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Posts: 400


« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 10:51:00 pm »

Considering it loses mineplow and tankshock and is more expensive it is totally not worth it imo.
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DarkSoldierX Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3015



« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 11:09:45 am »

Almost everyone believes the 80 fuel increase is too much. Especially when it looses its mineplow and tankshock. So what do the devs think?
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Unkn0wn Offline
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 12:05:31 pm »

We're already going to be changing things next patch I believe.
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Mysthalin Offline
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2010, 04:44:49 pm »

I haven't actually seen the slightest bit of argumentation as to why the Churchil MK VI has suddenly become not-cost-effective. Because another unit in the tree becomes actually somewhat useful, this one becomes UP? How is that, in any way, related by logic?

The Churchil MK VI is already, essentially, a better armored, better health 75mm Sherman that is a bit slower and costs 15 more MP.

Considering how stronger the churchil armour is to the sherman armour while how much slower the churchil is, the current price seems entirely justified.
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BeRzErKeR Offline
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Posts: 266


« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2010, 04:57:10 pm »

Both tanks fulfill the same role in the same doctrine. They perform very identically so could we just remove it from the game and replace it(MKVI)?
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DarkSoldierX Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3015



« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2010, 05:36:09 pm »

MKVI cost 40 fuel more than a sherman, and is much slower as its tradeoff to having better armour and 70 more hp (WOW! A whole 70! thats like.... a few more penetrating LAHT shots!)
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Demon767 Offline
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2010, 06:59:38 pm »

you dont realise how many shots it can deflect while crushing into the frontline, killing infantry while your ATG's crawl up to finish there tanks off. the churchill is than untouchable including when u put doctrine buffs in.

Myst +1
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Generalleutnant of The Reichs Wolves

Nevergetsputonlistguy767
DarkSoldierX Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3015



« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2010, 07:15:44 pm »

Around 80-90 more hp with doctrine buffs isnt alot. In the situation you describe enemy paks and tanks would have hurt it down to 40% by the time the atgs are in position and the infantry are attacking. Definetly not worth 80 more fuel when you can do the same for 2 less pop and surpress the enemy infantry and crush them then die instead of getting raped by a atg and splash killing just 4-6 infantry.
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Demon767 Offline
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Posts: 6190



« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2010, 07:25:11 pm »

your theory is wrong. infact it is a working tactic that is extremely effective. and its 300 more HP FYI degrading to 150
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DarkSoldierX Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3015



« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2010, 07:31:01 pm »

Oh lol, You ment the ablative armour T4, I thought you were talking about the T3 that gives 15% more HP on all churchs. It is not extremly effective and a simple incluson of 1 hmg or switchout of just 1 of those lowly volks to grens with a shrek = tactic looses.
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Mysthalin Offline
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2010, 12:31:36 am »

700 * 1.15 = 805

Then it's got 169 HP more than a sherman. This is an entire penetrating cloaked pak shot more worth of HP. Either way, the unit needs to be balanced without doctrine buffs, and the buffs need to be balanced among themselves - don't bring them into such arguments, as they're fairly moot. And yes, excuse me. I was somewhat off - the MK 6 costs just 20 FU more than a sherman, on top of the 15 MP more - and it was balanced for a very long time. No change was done to the MK 6, so I fail to see your point as to why it has become unbalanced.

Quote
Both tanks fulfil the same role in the same doctrine. They perform very identically so could we just remove it from the game and replace it(MKVI)?

The units do NOT perform identically - the MK 4 gun is gravely inferior to the MK 6 in nearly every way.

Splash damage :


////////////// MK 4     MK 6
L                  0.2      0.35
M                 0.35      0.5
S                   1          1


Splash radius :


/////////////  MK 4    MK  6
L                  0.5       3
M                0.25       1
S                  0.1      0.25


So, the MK 6 gun deals the same splash damage at long range splash radius as the MK 4 gun deals in it's medium splash radius.
Furthermore, the MK 6 gun has 12 times more long range splash than the MK 4 gun has medium range splash - it does not mean the gun is 12 times better in fighting infantry squads, of course not, but basically - the MK 6 can actually be expected to repeatedly snipe an infantry man dealing serious damage to all the men around, while the MK 4 can only be relied on sniping a single guy without any retribution to the men around. This is, of course, excluding special occasions such as infantry leaving a halftrack and being bunched up, which aren't something to do balance on.

The penetration table of both guns raises an eyebrow :
it's nearly identical, with the MK 4 having 3 percent more base penetration at long range.

However, a brief look at the penetration tables against P4s and StuGs soon breaks the illusion of the MK 4 being at least somewhat better at something :

P4 armor :

MK 4 - 40.57% chance of penetration
MK 6 - 58.64% chance of penetration.

StuG armor :
MK 4 - 23.2% chance of penetration
MK 6 - 34.6% chance of penetration.

Looking at all the other penetrations versus various tanks(which I don't feel like listing) I find that overall, the MK 6 is a near 50 percent better at penetration versus all targets than it's MK 4 cousin.

Finally, the MK 4 has 0.5 moving accuracy.
The MK 6 has 0.75.
50 percent more accurate on the move is very, very important.

Rest assured - the difference in the effectiveness of the MK 4 and the MK 6 guns is in a completely different league when comparing the 75mm and the 76mm Sherman guns. It is that much more expensive, and costs more popcap for a very good reason.

Now that you have read the comparison : in an assault which involves protecting (integral to your tactic) ATGs from counter-attacking enemy infantry and vehicles with your own (likely moving) tank - which would you chose - the MK 4 or the MK 6? I'd personally just go crocodile, because that thing is awesome, but barring access to one - I'd grab myself the MK 6 without as much as a shadow of a doubt.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 04:38:52 am by Mysthalin » Logged
CafeMilani Offline
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Posts: 2994



« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2010, 03:41:29 am »

I'd grab myself the MK 6 without as much as a shadow of a doubt.
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DarkSoldierX Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3015



« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2010, 07:08:34 am »

Congrats, you can only afford a 3, oh wait, that means no firefly and command tank. Aww shucks. Better load up on ATG. Oh wait that means fewer brens and handheld at and officers. Oh damn. I think il go back the 4 that can have the firefly and ct so I dont fuckup my company.
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2010, 07:10:33 am »

What are you talking about Dark?
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LeoPhone Offline
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« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2010, 09:50:55 am »

he means its so much fuel he cant spam 1000 tanks, as allies are used to  Grin
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2010, 11:24:09 am »

You can afford 4 MK 6s without any fuel bonuses. 5 with just T1 FU.
And with 6 ATGs, who needs fireflies. You're left with 1000 MU after these ATGs and repairs for 11 brens.
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