A problem I see in a Mod about persistence..

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[vivie5]

Straight up, Axis squads are at a disadvantage with 4 man squad size.

I think Axis squads as a base need to be 5 men. Allies 6men. Then balance around this.

As it is, Axis vet is really hard to keep alive. Assault troops don't have extra men to make it out alive during a retreat (4/6 rangers dead, 2 have enough dodge to make it out). Where an axis squad is not that survivable on an assault.

Axis do not have the tools to sit and turtle, however they do have great tanks. Guess what wipes out great tanks?

And people who say vet isn't important, whats the point of this being a persistence themed mod then? Then its just a mod where you pick a doctrine play with a disposable army. As one side has a distinct advantage on keeping their army persistent, and more tools to wipe out the enemy vet. As allies also have cheap access to arty, both on and off map that can easily tag and wipe out an axis squad. Ive played many games with my British where I can get that six man squad out of hell and carry forth my vet bonus to another battle field. As it is, even a retreating squad cannot escape the Howie/25pder nonsense. Add in the new creeping barrage and this gets more fun. Nothing axis has can kill full units so effectively.

Now how do we counter Arty? We assault it, but wait, we have small squads, most likely not vetted, that are expensive. A arty piece has a fair bit of hp, mortaring one will never take it out, if you even manage to get THAT close without suffering return fire. Doctrine's make allied arty even more stupid, with 1minute vet3 howitzers under certain allied builds. Axis does have artillery, but it tends to be on very rarely played doctrines.

Look at weapon upgrades, Gren squads can get 1 Lmg for 75 (so 2 for 140, WITH Doctrine) and four bodies.
British can get a Bren for 120, 2 guns and six bodies.

People often say that Axis weapons are better, but when the squad is small and easy to neutralize I think this statement looses power.

Beyond that, while Axis support weapons are significantly better than Allies. Its very affordable in terms of resources AND pop to wipe out support weapons while the Axis have nothing to return the favor. (Hummel is a tier 3).

Overall in my experience playing Axis, it is much harder to keep vet alive on this side of the fence. There are many things that can totally negate your experience. I see this as a balance problem that threatens my perception of the mod. That perception being this game is about having a persistent army that you carry game to game, rack up experience, unlock new skills and move forth with. Ive been playing daily for 3 months now (2nd time ive played the mod heavily) and have not been too impressed with the speed that balance moves. I understand this can be a process, but how big is the balance team? Would adding members to this team get things done faster?

I understand all of us have jobs, and other responsibilities. I just think more people can get things done in a better time frame. I would like to hear other players voices on some matters above, or other general things.

Now this isn't meant as an attack or anything, just an opinion from my perception.

*AT-Gun Snipe also hurts Axis -alot- more than allies.. 1 rifleman? woopie.. 1 gren? shit..

[Jodomar]

i'm for more grens on the squad and german 105's

[FailHammer]

Vet is for clowns.

you dont need to buff axis just let the allies lose vet easier too.

[Rocksitter]

 I approve of this i find the 4 man KCH more survivable... and I like the idea of more up grades for units....

[Dragon2008]

You av to remember that axis units r stronger per man than there ally counter parts. Giving the axis the option to get an extra man on there squad would make them surely alot more powerful than intended. Id go into numbers and stats about different units but don't know them that well.

Alles units per man= cheap, weak, plenty
Axis units per man = slighty more expensive, stronger, fewer.

[Jazzhead]

You av to remember that axis units r stronger per man than there ally counter parts. Giving the axis the option to get an extra man on there squad would make them surely alot more powerful than intended. Id go into numbers and stats about different units but don't know them that well.

Alles units per man= cheap, weak, plenty
Axis units per man = slighty more expensive, stronger, fewer.

Yes but when vet preservation is brought into play things change a bit. With small squads you dont want to retreat them off the field after losing 1 or 2 guys, but when you only have 1 man left in the squad (even though he has high health) he can be gibbed by 1 t17 shot or something of that nature.  There are so many situations when having higher health per guy is not better than high count squads. With axis more than allies, you have to choose between saving your vet (and losing the game) or sacrificing them to lame gibs

[Groundfire]

You do know what you suggest will destroy the balance between all factions, right?

[vivie5]

Its something that I am surprised didn't come up sooner. (the 5 man axis units) I can see PE have 5man units via the Vet Sergent upgrade.

I'm just saying, I think it would help persistence of the German army a whole lot more.

[gamesguy2]

Its something that I am surprised didn't come up sooner. (the 5 man axis units) I can see PE have 5man units via the Vet Sergent upgrade.

I'm just saying, I think it would help persistence of the German army a whole lot more.

It's not true.  Historically in EIR wehr has been able to farm and retain more vet than US. The inverse is true for PE and Brits.

[Killer344]

The Vet Sergent upgrade grants them 25% less received supression, not an extra man.

[lionel23]

Killer, what he is saying and I agree with is making the vet sarge ADD a guy to the squad.

Say it would look something like this:

Vet Sarge: 20 MP, 1 POP

So know you make a tougher squad and put it on par with pop of elite infantry.  There we go, it's balanced by being more expensive and easily able to retain vet better.  And the whole nonsense about americans being cheap and plentiful is a weak argument.  I use rangers because they are the toughest damn infantry in the game and I don't have body armor for riflemen, who I use in my 5 howie company as suicide guys to kill infantry and tanks because they're no reason for me to vet them.

[gamesguy2]

PGs have the best vet in the game, so in return they have the hardest time achieving and retaining that vet.

And 5 man PGs would cause all sorts of balance issues, so no.

[lionel23]

Really? It seems pretty much identical to riflemen vet and almost on par with rangers, cept they get sprint at T2... but sure we can keep axis infantry as is then if that's what's best for the mod, right?

And if anything what about Grens in Wehr then, really is that such an issue to pay more MP and a POP point for a 5th guy? Especially in light of things like light vehicles and chunkier allied infantry squads? Look at airborne with vet 3 and T4.. that's a 6 man gren squad with 100 HP a guy roughly and 123HP for the dang sarge, I wish my rangers or grens could do that.

[gamesguy2]

Really? It seems pretty much identical to riflemen vet and almost on par with rangers, cept they get sprint at T2... but sure we can keep axis infantry as is then if that's what's best for the mod, right?

That's by far the most powerful vet bonus in the game.  It'd be like if all riflemen or tommies got fire up at vet 2...

Sprint is arguably better than fire up.

[lionel23]

Unless your airborne, where you suffer no exhaustion and get it off a faster cooldown from vet and the T4.....

[gamesguy2]

Unless your airborne, where you suffer no exhaustion and get it off a faster cooldown from vet and the T4.....

Yeah but that's elite infantry with a T4.

[Computer991]

Learn to use Axis inf,I have all my PGrens to almost vet 3 it's not very HARD,use cover don't buy g43's and seriously 20 pop for an extra guy? Sure if he doesn't get a gun

[FailHammer]

why no 43s?

and sprint doesnt unsuppress you

[lionel23]

Cause it's a fail upgrade perhaps?  And I guess sprint is nice since it's for basic infantry and not elite infantry, so that's got to be good, right? 

[vivie5]

I think you could lower / average out axis health/damage to reflect 5 man squads. Or would that be a balance nightmare?

Obviously I have never coded with COH before, but I have worked on other games in the past. Usually changing any game values was just a process of reloading a game over and over. Now, COH is a 2 player game so you'd really need a handy test buddy always.