Whatever happened to subtelty?

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Sach]

When I first started playing EIR doctrine abilites would genereally do one of 3 things. Increase a stat by a relatively small amount (ie 20%), Decrease the cost of a unit or give you an offmap.

There were relatively few Mickey Mouse abilities and those that were in were from the base CoH game ie FTFL/Blitzkrieg (with the notable exception of Subversion).

I personally prefer this type of gameplay, where your doctrines give you an edge, improve your playstyle or tactic. Even overpowered abilities like OBM and Tank Reapers, at least they were just enhancements to existing mechanics and you could instantly recognise what was going on.

There seems to be a trend towards adding brand new units/abilities and doctrines which are often bizzarre and completely change the way a doctrine/unit composition works from CoH.

Now I may be on my own here and people might love these new fantasy bits and pieces but I have to ask, wheres the subtelty?

[CrazyWR]

great question...

[bbsmith]

When in EIR did the doctrines increase a stat by a small amount?

[NightRain]

Generally I see nothing wrong in Armies of cheap r0fls (was it 100 riflemen per coy with those 2x Tier 3s?)

Or massively OP tank reapers and literally hilarious Subversion

Let's just say...I like the current one far better, even if I miss some of the old abilities.

[Groundfire]

I fail to see any "fantasy abilities" in our current doctrine build. Those were out when Salan got ousted.

We dont have stuff like "bogged down" anymore. Maybe that PE tank command thing can be considered one, but thats all I can think of.

Abilities like "pervitin pills" and "asymetric warefare" might be what your refering to, but i dont consider them any different from introducing doctrine abilities in the same class as TR.

[Sach]

When in EIR did the doctrines increase a stat by a small amount?

I started playing EIR in Spring 2008. So then onwards.

Generally I see nothing wrong in Armies of cheap r0fls (was it 100 riflemen per coy with those 2x Tier 3s?)

Or massively OP tank reapers and literally hilarious Subversion

Let's just say...I like the current one far better, even if I miss some of the old abilities.

I've aready highlighted Subersion of an example of whats wrong with fantasy ablities. Tank Reapers was exceptional because it buffed just 1 unit by 40% as opposed to a few units bby smaller %s, its the exception that proves th rule.

As for tons of rifles fron inf companies, hordes of AB from para companies and colks spam from def company. At the end of the day they were just vanilla units. You knew what they could and couldn't do and sure there were 100s of them but they didn't suddenly shit fire and piss lightning.

I fail to see any "fantasy abilities" in our current doctrine build. Those were out when Salan got ousted.

We dont have stuff like "bogged down" anymore. Maybe that PE tank command thing can be considered one, but thats all I can think of.

Abilities like "pervitin pills" and "asymetric warefare" might be what your refering to, but i dont consider them any different from introducing doctrine abilities in the same class as TR.

Theres levels of fantasy. This has been sparked by a game where I literally had no idea what the fuck was going on. Now I don't play a lot, I dont pay a lot of attention to the patch notes and I haven't had a lvl 9 account in a year so I appreciate I am not the most in-touch of people. But when AB and rifles start using assault or firing bazookas while sprinting and half the map explodes in a giant FOO you have to wonder... wheres the subtelty?

You have to take what I say with a pinch of salt. I disapprove of Airborne Rifles and AB meids. I barely tolerate 50mms. I am just sounding out if anyone else agrees that its gonee too far.

[Smokaz]

It can be a bit superspamgay at times. I've suggested publicly and internally that all doctrine choices should work like the bottom unlocks, aka you pay increased resources for improved units/upgrades. It's been shot down over and over again, I've whined about it like a hero but no applause has been given.

Which is ultimately sad, because other than eternal tinkering with %'s and continual arguing where we have to compare buffs across factions we just don't have much of a basic measure for this rendering the discussion and development of doctrine balance a horribly painful process.

The only way you can really balance cross-race, cross-doctrine buffs that I can see working out is by attaching a objective and numerical cost to them. Three elements: the base unit, the buff, and the cost. Without a cost present you lack the mediating value between the base platform and the buff.

A usable example is the Airborne (Top T4) Easy Company, granting 20% health and more bonuses to AB unit 1 and AB unit 2 vs Fatherland defense who buffs all unit's health by 20%. Wheres the possible measure stick, the yard, the meter for this? If there was a cost you could adjust this based on the received % or the equivalent when it comes to abilities with the base unit. When there's no cost it's just % against each other.

Doctrines should offer softer choices, not just cater to superspam companies. What other call themes, is just a masked disguise for a extreme lust to powergame.

Adding a price to all doctrine buffs also reopens for the old type of EIR play, aka the ability to focus on a mix of high price/low price units or focus on a high quality-low numbers or low-quality high numbers type of company. You could even end up running a company with little to no doctrine bonuses but being more numerous.

Once you streamlined the doctrines to all have a cost to buffs, or at least decided that combat performance increasing buffs (hp, damage, received accuracy, accuracy etc) while some less intense passive increases like speed, sight range etc who could be free or cheaper, you could start really making a working fundament for the different races, aka all of them having healing, all of them being able to field some base support weapons (which is almost required to be able to defend properly) and give all factions a open-topped carrier for offensive infantry movement things would finally be similar enough for balance to be easier to achieve through objective comparisons.

[Dragon2008]

I agree with Sach n smokaz 150% on this issue. 

[EliteGren]

Circus!

[Unkn0wn]

It can be a bit superspamgay at times. I've suggested publicly and internally that all doctrine choices should work like the bottom unlocks, aka you pay increased resources for improved units/upgrades. It's been shot down over and over again, I've whined about it like a hero but no applause has been given.

I'd like to point out that I've ran this with EIRRmod and based on what was said, I can assure you that once all doctrines are in we will be taking the necessary steps to weed out excessive buffs, ridiculous abilities and what not.

Once all doctrines are implemented this kind of feedback we be very important to steer us in the right way

[CafeMilani]

It can be a bit superspamgay at times. I've suggested publicly and internally that all doctrine choices should work like the bottom unlocks, aka you pay increased resources for improved units/upgrades. It's been shot down over and over again, I've whined about it like a hero but no applause has been given.

o rly? discouraging spamming?

[Malevolence]

[puddin]

sach i knew i loved you  

The only added unit i enjoyed was the commando ambush squad.  But then again it was a T4 and versatile with the only buff being 60s reduced smoke recharge.  But i see what you mean sach.  Many times the massive difference between Vcoh and EIRR and having to know what units are change, and then what abilities appear and then having some abilities that you have no idea what they are being used is weird.  

And the massive differences between doctrines.  I thought the Doctrines were suppose to be Subtle, the reason for the 3 Month hiatus of not having doctrines.  

But i guess some of the doctrines need tweaking but many times a slgiht change, a small edge, the little bit extra than your vet to give you an edge where that squad might live to turn the tide where as without that doctrine ou;d have to retreat or lose the squad that much sooner.  

[Smokaz]

It can be a bit superspamgay at times. I've suggested publicly and internally that all doctrine choices should work like the bottom unlocks, aka you pay increased resources for improved units/upgrades. It's been shot down over and over again, I've whined about it like a hero but no applause has been given.

o rly? discouraging spamming?

This gets me so confused sometimes. German economy is rolling, yet their school system must be falling behind because your reading comprehension is just non-existent.

Where is the money going? They even donated a lot of euros to the lazy greeks who could not tend for themselves after spending all their investments on failed Ibiza parties.

With this system you'd still be able to spam out your ass.

[Smokaz]

It can be a bit superspamgay at times. I've suggested publicly and internally that all doctrine choices should work like the bottom unlocks, aka you pay increased resources for improved units/upgrades. It's been shot down over and over again, I've whined about it like a hero but no applause has been given.

I'd like to point out that I've ran this with EIRRmod and based on what was said, I can assure you that once all doctrines are in we will be taking the necessary steps to weed out excessive buffs, ridiculous abilities and what not.

Once all doctrines are implemented this kind of feedback we be very important to steer us in the right way

How will we do this without costs? Are we just going to put our hands down in the magic hat and pull out a rabbit which will tell us what the right % is ?

All hail the bottom doctrine system. Down with the free stuff! There is no such thing as free lunch!

I fail to see any "fantasy abilities" in our current doctrine build. Those were out when Salan got ousted.

We dont have stuff like "bogged down" anymore. Maybe that PE tank command thing can be considered one, but thats all I can think of.

Abilities like "pervitin pills" and "asymetric warefare" might be what your refering to, but i dont consider them any different from introducing doctrine abilities in the same class as TR.

I think the ab hit'n run already is, and the coming terror assault will be pretty fantastic from what i've heard

[vivie5]

I'm not sure I want to see units cost more, I think EIRR armies are right in an area of not being too small and wouldn't want to see less units during a game.

I mean like any other game, anywhere, you eventually have "power creep" where things just get progressively stronger.

I do prefer % based upgrades rather than new abilities, as balance can be an issue.

[BigDick]

The only way you can really balance cross-race, cross-doctrine buffs that I can see working out is by attaching a objective and numerical cost to them. Three elements: the base unit, the buff, and the cost. Without a cost present you lack the mediating value between the base platform and the buff.

why should someone realy want his T3,T4... if it did not buff his company at all, that it may buff units but you pay for it

that is nothing more like putting all your ressources in a small amount of risky units

like people don't like to get dual lmgs doctrine choice, investing all their munitions into few gren squads with 2xlmg and waste a doctrine choice/unlock

imo it would not make sense for me to get doctrine choices at all, i would rather play using vanilla units than putting all eggs in one basket

what u suggest are these doctrine choices that are in and really suck like e.g. terror assault

[Akranadas]

Airborne Raid Spam Companies were subtle

[Smokaz]

The only way you can really balance cross-race, cross-doctrine buffs that I can see working out is by attaching a objective and numerical cost to them. Three elements: the base unit, the buff, and the cost. Without a cost present you lack the mediating value between the base platform and the buff.

why should someone realy want his T3,T4... if it did not buff his company at all, that it may buff units but you pay for it

that is nothing more like putting all your ressources in a small amount of risky units

like people don't like to get dual lmgs doctrine choice, investing all their munitions into few gren squads with 2xlmg and waste a doctrine choice/unlock

imo it would not make sense for me to get doctrine choices at all, i would rather play using vanilla units than putting all eggs in one basket

what u suggest are these doctrine choices that are in and really suck like e.g. terror assault

what are you even talking about, it would still be good to unlock the doctrine's possibilities and buy whatever unit's you want OR like to play with OR think would be best otherwise, since it adds choice

and with this system you COULD play with vanilla units with simpler/less buffed stats, since you would pay less for them it would be perfectly viable. it fair as well since if the prices were right it would all come down to who was using their units better

this system also completely kills the doctrine rape of your company's continuity that happens when you grab your T3-T4's that vastly change how a unit can be used

why?

cause when I grab T3 napalm my flammenwerfers are suddenly cost-effective and reliable, when I get tank reapers I can use my zooks against the same targets you use shreks/rr's against but without it I can't fight medium tanks at all, and skirted one's are off limits to me. I don't have to vastly outplay a guy with a KT either, cause my 57mm's will screw him up

i grab carabines/storm tactics suddendly i'm cool with using base infantry as dedicated AI without muni upgrades.. with this system if you wanted to reproduce the old rapage carabines/st's of old you'd have to actually pay for it and it would balance a lot of the spam t4's without having to constantly battle each other's opinion when the metagame changes

"carabines isnt op just bring 5 ostwinds"

"heat rounds ostwind arent OP just bring 4 tank reaper zooks"

you could opt for more tanks, or more repairs on a smaller amount of tanks (obviously the 2nd repair should cost fuel in this system)

the idea is sound

[Tymathee]

old eir wasn't subtle in upgrades at all, neither was the old eirr docs before the doc wipe, i'm lost.

tell me, what abilities aren't subtle and fantasy abilities that aren't copies of other abilities with a new twist?