Fall of France..continues?

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[salan]

Fun game, got some tweaking to do but a good time. A guide to doc trees/units would be soo helpful

I will have that as I build the new ones, I plan to keep up on the docs this time.  I was making a wiki with the last one but the wiki sucked.

[salan]

ATG's can snipe infantry far too easily, and snipers rate of fire makes standard infantry all but redundant.

ya these were things I was going to look at.  I know I fixed AT guns sniping each other..

Infantry don't stand a chance against tanks either.

they really weren't suppose to .. forces combined arms.  Infantry blobs are MINCE against Mgs and a lot of vehicles, need support to remove the tank, also why the tanks cost a lot more.

Instant build times are also a bad idea. Even though it's for both sides, it results in 88's or 17's instantly locking down an area from nowhere, with a Flakvierling or Bofor's popping up right next to it.

tuff one though, I have to test that if it gets interupted how it impacts the money of that team.  Hard to spend that much money on something that never gets built when you have such limited money.

Something I also brought up before, was Emplacement health... I'd say it needs to be halved atleast - Artillery fire did nothing to it, and concentrated tank fire took a long time to bring down one emplacement. This was a Flakvierling, and tbh, if it were an 88 or 17, then it would of been a total no-go zone.

lucky the 88 emplacement won't autotarget lol.. but ya it was on the list to watch.

Fun concept, just needs some balance adjustments for the next proper release ya do.

most definitely, its a pretty unique mod on its own, and it NEEDS to be balanced, most definitely.

[LeoPhone]

units retreating to hq is also not really cool. it makes your sniper invulnerable.

[salan]

but... why did you change unit stats? and why soo many new units like cromwells that are not cromwells but chuch norris in a cardboard box.
german medium armour has become useless (panther the most) with the brits having so much tanks that are just better than axis tanks.

Well when I made this there were no models for extra vehicles / tanks/ weapons... so I had to use the same models we had and name them designate them differently some how.  That has mostly changed now, for the most part.  I also never got to the Skin stage of the mod, ie: black prince being black... etc for easy designations.

and to my knowledge there really is no 'gimmicky' things in FOF.. there are no global abilities, no offmap abilities, no bonus stats you get on your p4 that the other player doesn't have on theirs.  All the units are straight forward and exactly what they are, you just have to know what that unit does to know what it is is all..


when I created fall of france I had a few things guide me in how I wanted to make it.  

Total Annihilation.    I loved how the units didn't have super powers unlike in starcraft.  If you notice most infantry only have accessory weapons as their buttons, other then the fireup/ stealth.  no Button, no Suppression Fire, no treadbreaker, no cannister shot.   So I don't know where you get the 'gimmicky' comment.

EIR.  I wanted to remove base building, but didn't know how to do it previously.  I have just learned how to autospawn my buildings and make them inconsequential.  I am having an issue with making them invisible and usable, so right now the building is actually a pile of flowers ... which are indestructible and non shot blocking and can be walked over .. until I can figure out the invisibility / usefulness issue.

Close Combat/Fortress Europe..   These games rocked, having units come pre-upgraded as a base cost/pool is basically identical to what I wanted to achieve.  Your rifles come with the stickies and grenades already.. your rangers come with their loadout as per whichever one you buy.  


FOF was never balanced, its art work never completed, it simply got its last units *a few of which still didn't work right (88 emplacement)* and then stopped being worked on.

[salan]

units retreating to hq is also not really cool. it makes your sniper invulnerable.

that was another thing I wanted to fix.. I wanted anything retreated to remove off map like in EIR/EIRR/OMG. 

I am going to try to make it that anything that gets retreated off map opens up a cheaper version of itself for purchase, a way to cycle them back in again, at a cost. 
slot items should be able to handle that once I figure out how to make the retreat function, which won't be hard once I look at it.

[LeoPhone]

what i ment with gimmick is that all these new units are simply not needed. you have a flak 36. there is no need for a flak 36 emplacement. you got all the types of armour you can get. no need for 40 other types. limit the new tanks to the amount of new models you have.
also stuff like all tanks having smoke barrages and all inf having nades is just not nice...

good with the retreat stuff, it sounds great!

[MittinsKittens]

The retreat seems kind of lame to make it go off map...since, well, if you accidental walk into an MG with a squad. Boom, thats it, GG squad :/
PS:- I should be uploading a reply tomorrow, so those who want to see what a game with humans is like but can't get a game going, you should be able to see

[Grundwaffe]

The retreat seems kind of lame to make it go off map...since, well, if you accidental walk into an MG with a squad. Boom, thats it, GG squad :/

Then that is unfortunatly, our problem.. And that might also be why we use 1 e.x rifleman squad at a time to scout before sending the whoole cavarly..

[MittinsKittens]

Yeah, But thats one squad we've lost in a game where we get very limited units, For me, Thats a big deal, since if you keep scouting everytime you're going forward and losing that man, you're going to lose pretty quickly :/

[salan]

teh recon squads have larger sight radius for a reason

[Grundwaffe]

Yeah, But thats one squad we've lost in a game where we get very limited units, For me, Thats a big deal, since if you keep scouting everytime you're going forward and losing that man, you're going to lose pretty quickly :/

Well i did'nt mean everytime ofc, maybe the good ol' classic squad behind hedges or buildings.
Even thou, predicting the enemy works most of time

[lionel23]

I'll give my two cents after playing the latest 'alpha' I was linked today with some of the guys.

• Lack of Buildable Cover - What gives with no wire or even sandbags?  Makes infantry very vulnerable on maps that don't have a lot of cover, and they die fast enough as is
• Infantry - Most useless guys in the game, in fact anything strictly AI is stupid with the current state of the mod.  Pak/57 just snipe infantry, the sniper's rate of fire is just too insanely high, able to kill half a squad very quickly and 'retreat' away.  And what's with all the US squads being 4-5 men?  It's like the silliness that is the KCH.  Infantry either need to be made much larger (squad size), have SIGNIFICANTLY reduced prices or be able to reinforce.  Vet on infantry is just silly as they lose guys and all you can really do is heal them, whileas tanks get 2-3 repairs.
• Tanks - Too powerful as is.  I'll take the Sherman 75 and 76mm as an example.  Why would you EVER bother to take the 75?  It has the exact same pop and cost, yet the 76 can kill tanks, its hull machine absolutely rapes infantry and the splash damage on it allows me to instant gib entire squads!  In fact, too many tanks have way too much power in their splash damage, considering the limited use of infantry currently.  I see no reason to promote combined arms with infantry when a tank can singlehanded wipe out support weapons and infantry.  And getting onto that..
• Support Weapons and redudancy of unit roles - My biggest issue is that support weapons are absolutely fail.  When an axis infantry unit can run up and grenade an MG team without so much as getting suppressed, it's ridiculous.  Or even better, two ranger units (vanilla) firing on an MG team that runs up well within its own range, sets up and can deploy and wipe them out before they kill even one guy is silly.  The only thing that saved me was my 57mm sniping along with a 76mm sherman popping the crew before I lost all 10 rangers!  AT units in general are too effective against infantry to warrant taking AI units, I laughed when my tank destroyers run into MP44 storms and can just sit back and snipe them with my 57mm while I am more worried about tanks as I know infantry can't really bother my army, combined or pure armor otherwise.
• One-man units - Without the ability to reinforce, one man squads are abused to hell.  I had a ranger SMG squad run after 2 one-man grens who both died throwing a nade that wiped out the whole squad.  And later had two riflemen units killed by a single gren throwing a nade at them.  I think that is clearly abusive in their role when the enemy knows you can't reinforce infantry so he drains it while repairing tanks, which I find US tanks are generally severely lacking compared to the more formidable british unlock tanks (especially the challenger tank... a 17lber in a cromwell? Jesus! I tried the Easy Eight and it absolutely sucked compared to that rape machine)
• Emplacements - Super ridiculous as is.  Flakvierling emplacement went up next to a VP, and it was IMPOSSIBLE TO KILL.  Why?  It is so tough it can bounce tank shots and if it does penetrate it barely scratches it, hit it with 3 howies and they either bounce or cause very little damage, its set up where you can't bring AT guns (in an urban setting) AND it instant pwns infantry.  Not to mention the instant build times where you can't even stop it or for that matter 88s.  And howies not damaging 88s but only killing the crew?  Had an 88 wipe out 3 squads of rangers rushing it, kill all my support MGs and ATGs and tanks and all he has to do is keep a superior MG42 to rape any infantry that gets near it when the 88 isn't snipe/splashing infantry.
• Support Weapons too Weak - At Least for the allies I tried out the big 76mm pushed ATG, and wow it has no chance against a King Tiger, which proceeded to walk up to it and either kill with its heavy splash cannon OR just sit in front of it and mow the whole crew with te hull MG AND top mg.  With no AP rounds or anything, it is just as terrible as the 57.  Now, yes I am primarily complaining about the US side as the British can go on par with Wehr's super armor tanks and their vet, I just don't see how US can compare when their supposed unlocks are so expensive AND lacking.  What was i told about fighting Wehr? Do British, yeah you have to have a British player to stomp axis late armor.

Overall the mod can go places, Salan.  But as it stands the tanks are way, way too powerful for their costs and infantry is too weak and useless to be comined arms.  The only real 'armies' feasible is just pure armor/support spam with MGs OR snipers, with the lack of reinforcing and/or big squad sizes just turns me off to infantry, as well as the huge access of 'Artillery division' spotters that can just wpe out whole hordes of infantry or.. if my memory serves me... 88s can fire arty too?? The amount of on-map artillery is just ridiculous and needs to be toned down so infantry can actually serve a purpose instead of giving free vet to ATGs, Tanks, and emplacements/support teams (flaks and the like). Repairs I don't know... I think they are way too excessive considering infantry is way too fragile and infantry accuracy definitely needs a buff (10 rangers failing to stop a MG team that runs into FULL sight range and sets up at medium range and rapes them? Really?)

[rifle87654]

The assualt-flammen grens on a IHT is so OP.
I killed about 7 infantry.
All howitzer crews.
I just walk around into their base.
And burn them to hell.
But you really need to do more remodeling.
It's weird seeing a marder III coming out from allies' base.
But the unit description is: Valentine Archer.

[Jazzhead]

Where is the updated version where the buildings are removed and stuff? Sorry if i missed it somewhere 

[salan]

Where is the updated version where the buildings are removed and stuff? Sorry if i missed it somewhere  

i didn't put it out yet, making sure it was working.  There was an issue with the building being invisible. Once you toggle that they weren't able to build anymore.  

so instead, i turned them into flowers that really are ignorable


for now... working on a fix for that invisible problem

[MittinsKittens]

Got the Reply from last night, 3v3. Shows some pretty good parts of the game, like me spawning a P4 right on a group of men and 3 of them being instagibbed
I played pretty poorly that game, but I was trapped into a corner with no real means of breaking out but I assume the other 2 did brilliant
And Salan, Take this has a chance to see what you feel needs sorting out x3
FYI, You just need the Mod and the Replay File, Easier then EIR

[rifle87654]

Got the Reply from last night, 3v3. Shows some pretty good parts of the game, like me spawning a P4 right on a group of men and 3 of them being instagibbed
I played pretty poorly that game, but I was trapped into a corner with no real means of breaking out but I assume the other 2 did brilliant
And Salan, Take this has a chance to see what you feel needs sorting out x3
FYI, You just need the Mod and the Replay File, Easier then EIR

I did horrible today 1v1 V.S. Computer991

[LeoPhone]

other points:

one player having AB, howies and pershing is simply retarded. and because you need the tank doctrine to make a p4 or you need support doctrine to make a support weapon, you will get lots of 1 kind of unit spam.

capping territory seems kinda bugged. one time i cap territory with my kettenkrad, then when i leave it in there the enemy caps it again. or when i and my enemy have inf in a terriory it swaps from neutral to friendly every 2 seconds.

[MittinsKittens]

Must admit, I agree with everyone here, how quickly the infintry die is insane, I've came the end of a game with quite a few tanks on the field but with only 2 squads of near dead infintry. And you can't push for a vp because they will have an mg or a tank waiting to shred you apart as soon as you look at the vp with them x(

[Grundwaffe]

I like the fast dying system, if it's realism it's suitable.