[PE] Luft. Ostfront Veterans

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[pqumsieh]

i think pe has their own twist on the flak that makes it worthwhile and equally as deadly as the wehr flak. pgs with g43's can slow down rushing airborne (or other infantry) and take htem out with an IST relatively easily. They also got one of the best mortars in the game making counter mortars some what less viable. Plus does garrison cover fair better vs artillery than green cover? if so, then that will help the pe flak survive one of its larger counters.

PQ

[DarkSoldierX]

Infriarot might help when the enemy smokes and tries to move in with flamers. But the new doctrine still sucks. Luftwaffe will be weaker then all other doctrines except RCA for about 3-4 months seeing how development is going right now, because all the other doctrines arnt all gay and wierd like it.

[gamesguy2]

Garrison cover is ridiculously better than heavy cover against the most common weapon used against flaks, the howitzer.

Howitzer has 15% accuracy and 25% penetration vs units in garrison cover.  Yes, a howitzer shell can actually bounce off a PE flak 88 crew.

Against heavy cover it is only 1/2 damage and nothing else.

[AmPM]

Whats funny about the "overstacking" of buffs in things like armor, is that really, you only get 2 unlocks that really matter for the M10, Improved Armor and Mobile Warfare. Other than that it mostly buffs other units...like Jeeps.

Also, since people are so obsessed with Armor M10's they think every M10 fielded is Armor...most are not, I see the majority of M10 use in my partners that are AB and Infantry.

It's not so much an over stacking of buffs that makes doctrines unbalanced, but an uneven over stacking of buffs. AB being a prime example, way to many things increase AB effectiveness, especially for a company that really only needs AB to play.

Blitz buffing tanks a lot doesn't really make it overpowered to use tanks, because they can't win a game by themselves.

[pqumsieh]

I seriously don't understand where you are coming from dark. There is some amazing synergy in this doctrine not to mention some seriously over stacked buffs.

I'm not going to go into detail about how to actually make this doctrine work, I'll let you figure that out, but I assure you it has some amazing potential.

What I don't get is why you are so hard pressed on complaining about a T1 that you do not even have to take. There are plenty of doctrines where the T1's are just crap in  most cases, but you don't see people post about it demanding a fix.

Finally, if you have a more in depth complaint about this doctrine can you please specify so we can address you in more detail. As it stands, all I have gotten out of this thread is that a few people feel there is a lack of synergy (which is debatable and I whole heartedly disagree with) and that the T1 is useless because it doesn't buff LW or falls.

Oh, and there are not enough Falls buff in this doctrine. Apparently there are only 2 or so. I counted 9.5 buffs to falls/lw. I see nothing wrong with that number and I see no lack of potential. If you disagree thats fine, but please disagree with a bit more depth this time.

PQ

[CrazyWR]

Yes, there is synergy...in the top 2 trees, in a couple of choices, with the doctrine.  But there is a lack of synergy with the doctrine as a whole, the buffs are random, which is not the way to do it, although, yes, the buffs are nice, and you can certainly make plenty of potent companies with it, thats not the point.  Randomly handing out buffs is great, but silly.  Doctrines should be, and generally are, designed to work with the units that feature most prominently typically with that doctrine.  You don't see armor buffing infantry, or infantry buffing tanks.  The bottom tree is just a giant clusterfuck of fail tbh.  No direction at all, no point in 95% of the buffs, and seemingly random choices.


If I wanted to spam falls, yes, the top tree is rape, no argument.  However, the top tree is the only one that throughout it has a common theme.  The middle tree kind of wanders around here and there buffing a few units and then BAM gives you a ton of buffs at t4 to luft units.  The t4 is nice, but the t3 has no relevance to it, and neither does the t2.  Those two tiers prior to fortress europe buff alternative AI units that the wirble will generally be replacing if someone goes that route.  Hence, duplication and unnecessary.

The bottom tree is just...stupid.  It needs completely reworked.  TBH, its a joke.  Sure, you can build a nice company with it, but its just dumb.

[DarkSoldierX]

Lets see. There is 1 buff buffing falls accursey in buildings. Their is 1 buff making them recieve less acc in cover. Then there is a buff buffing normal falls from ambush. Then there is a buff buffing TB falls. Then we have a FG42 for luftwaffe. Next on we have faster building for falls and luft. (but falls dont build) Thats a total of 3 buffs for falls and their varients, and 4 buffs for luft. 2 Of those buffs are very situational and arnt very helpful for anything in 3v3's and 4v4s.

All of them are very small buffs except ambush bonus, which has to be from ambush.

Next on we have abilities giving them new abilities. Luftwaffe can cloak in cover,FG42s can surpress, and 1 more medkits from the medical t3 drop if you have it.

Now lets go on to Airborne.

You have 20+ HP buff on airborne, you have 20+% more penetration for their RRs and ATGs, you +5 los and 25% hp, you have fireup with no bad side effects. Then you have 1+ grenades and satchels, then you have More speed and damage after they are paradropped. Total of 8 buffs for airborne, with 2 that are situational but last for a long time.

Now on to new abilities. They build now and can use a free ability every now and while that can do good dammage vs enemy inf and moderate damage vs enemy light vehicles. They can cloak for a price but without ambush.

Whos has better para dropped units?

Even with all these other oddball buffs we still wouldnt win. Think that 48 sight panther is going to not take a good bit of damage from those RRs that WILL penetrate with 20% more pen? Or Those marders wont be circlestrafed even with 50% more firing arc against those M10s?

[Killer344]

You guys should know your shit (20% means porcentage of a base number), you make it seem like if they get a flat 20%.

[DarkSoldierX]

Alright 20+% More penetration you happy? Still OP.

[Killer344]

You obviously don't understand how it works, RRs already have almost 100% penetration and accuracy vs most targets, buffing any of both is pretty much negligible.

Against each tank the RR has a base penetration, to that number 20% is applied.

[gamesguy2]

Crazy how are you not seeing synergy?

Luftwaffe is the PE defensive tree, the entire middle tree is all buffs to defensive units.  From flaks to ambushing vehicles and infantry.  The top tree emphasizes ambushing with infantry, the middle one is flaks and vehicles.  The bottom one is a generalized tree buffing mostly utility of your entire company.

DarkSoldier you're being incredibly dishonest.  You seperated out +20% hp and +5 LOS but counted the top t4 as one buff?  

Think that 48 sight panther is going to not take a good bit of damage from those RRs that WILL penetrate with 20% more pen?

If your 48 sight 47.5 range panther is getting shot at by RRs with 35 range you should seriously reconsider your play style.   There is absolutely no excuse to be getting shot at by infantry AT when you have a 48 sight and range panther.  I can't remember the last time my omniscience panther was attacked by zooks or RRs.

[CrazyWR]

Yes, the top tree has synergy.  Its fine, I have no problem with that one.  The middle one, my problem lies in the fact that both the t2 and t3 buff AI units that have roles that will be fulfilled by the wirble in all likelihood.  I just very much dislike the bottom tier, as it buffs way too many units, and even though they aren't huge buffs, it seems very haphazard.  Also, generally buffing most of PE's units isn't such a good idea, or very synergistic...buffing an entire army is nice, but the synergy is from the army not the buffs.

[DarkSoldierX]

And is it not better than nothing? Which on falls it is nothing except the 15% less recieved acc because you are always in cover. Do falls recieve shitloads more HP from their doctrine? Are they just that good they incinerate their target always like airborne? Out of ambush they could, but after they loose 1 man their firepower goes to shit.

BTW Falls still have same recieved acc from ATGs like other elite infantry.

Tankbusters and Normal Falls dont get the same buffs. I didnt count them as one buff. As Normal falls dont get less faust cooldown and penetration, do they?

[gamesguy2]

Crazy just because you think there are overlapping buffs doesn't mean the middle tree is not synergetic.

The bottom tree has incredible synergy.  It supports a powerful combined arms army featuring most of the PE units rather than spamming one thing over and over.  You can field a nice army of PGs for anti-infantry, a panther for tank killer, marders for AT, hotchkisses for light vehicle support, muni HT/vampire HT to support your PGs/rest of army, etc.

The whole thing fits together in a well balanced army without emphasizing any one unit.  None of them compete with each other.  If the bottom t4 buffed G43s and default rifles and mp44s all at the same time you would have a point, but it doesn't.  All the units have different niches.

And is it not better than nothing? Which on falls it is nothing except the 15% less recieved acc because you are always in cover. Do falls recieve shitloads more HP from their doctrine? Are they just that good they incinerate their target always like airborne? Out of ambush they could, but after they loose 1 man their firepower goes to shit.

BTW Falls still have same recieved acc from ATGs like other elite infantry.

Tankbusters and Normal Falls dont get the same buffs. I didnt count them as one buff. As Normal falls dont get less faust cooldown and penetration, do they?

Now you're completely incoherent.

[DarkSoldierX]

Yeah I pressed post and It showed me your new post

Why would sombody want a IST and a wirblewind? Buff one bedone. You guys dont know what your buffing anyways. Wirblewind's need speed and group supression not health.

[gamesguy2]

Yeah I pressed post and It showed me your new post

Why would sombody want a IST and a wirblewind? Buff one bedone. You guys dont know what your buffing anyways. Wirblewind's need speed and group supression not health.

Wirblewind is an offensive vehicle, it doesn't help you if your 88 is being rushed by piats or RRs covered by smoke.

Cloaking IST is a defensive vehicle.  With the infrared cameras it will rape.

That's your opinion, I'd rather my wirble be tougher since it already suppresses in one burst anyways.  And unlike popular belief there is rarely gigantic blobs of infantry packed in the same spot for group suppression to actually matter.

[DarkSoldierX]

Infared camras for Wirblewind + 10 nearby supression radius + Blob of angry riflemen and flamers charging your 88 = Win

Wirblewind + speed + Airborne with RR fired up charging your halftrack and about to be exausted = Win

Wirblewinds fire much faster in short and moderate range, but that can be challanging seeing that they are so freaking slow!

[gamesguy2]

Infared camras for Wirblewind + 10 nearby supression radius + Blob of angry riflemen and flamers charging your 88 = Win

Wirblewind + speed + Airborne with RR fired up charging your halftrack and about to be exausted = Win

Wirblewinds fire much faster in short and moderate range, but that can be challanging seeing that they are so freaking slow!

Infared camras for Wirblewind + 10 nearby supression radius + Blob of angry riflemen and flamers charging your 88 with smoke cover= Fail.

Wirblewind + speed + Airborne with RR fired up charging your 88 or covered by smoke= Fail

Wirblewind is the same speed as a P4/Ostwind.

[DarkSoldierX]

And they are both slow. They can snipe at long range, wirblewind can't. Now if Wirblewind had the speed and acceleration of a quad....... which I find to be more effective and cheaper......

[deadbolt]

And they are both slow. They can snipe at long range, wirblewind can't. Now if Wirblewind had the speed and acceleration of a quad....... which I find to be more effective and cheaper......

combined with crush, good idea /sarcasm.