[CW][PE] Mobile Artillery. Overpriced ?

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[Tymathee]

yes the fire 6 shots but trust an arty whore, the priest is the most accurate artillery in the game, it has lower spread so you['re more likely to hit your target, same with the hummel, which is highly precise but you gotta do it just right, it's kinda fickle.

Anyway, I'd easily take a priest over 2 or 3 105's in my infantry company because of survivability, the ability to fire anywhere on the map if needed and the reason you take that many 105's is because they will get nuked by something but a priest is hard to nuke therefore Survivability > Spam

[Mgallun74]

yes the fire 6 shots but trust an arty whore, the priest is the most accurate artillery in the game, it has lower spread so you['re more likely to hit your target, same with the hummel, which is highly precise but you gotta do it just right, it's kinda fickle.

Anyway, I'd easily take a priest over 2 or 3 105's in my infantry company because of survivability, the ability to fire anywhere on the map if needed and the reason you take that many 105's is because they will get nuked by something but a priest is hard to nuke therefore Survivability > Spam

yes i wanted to point that out too, the howis are cheap, so you can take 2 or 3, because you probably need that many to be as effective if facing a competent player.. they know where your howi is, and somehow they will get ot it and remove it.  and ya you can recrew them, but that still costs manpower, i tend to use my normal rifles to recrew ATGS, HMGS and motars during the game, and having to recrew a howi multiple times can hurt that strat as well.

[AmPM]

You forget the tactical advantage you gain if they waste units or offmaps going after that Howi, the loss of either one being far more damaging to their company if you run your defense properly than the loss of a single howi crew, or maybe the gun.

[gamesguy2]

As Mysthalin said. 3 25Pdrs > 1 Priest.

3 of same unit type do better than 1 unit type. Always. I've been ignorant at one point 2 105s is nearly the cost as one Priest and Hummel while I've been calling it 3x. Anyway 3x 105 is only 80 fuel more than 1 Priest.

You pay a premium for the ability to move and more pop efficiency.  Three MP40 volks is more effective than a four man KCH squad, but that doesnt make the KCH squad weak. 

Mobile artillery also recharge faster and can relocate closer for much better accuracy.  Not to mention you can dodge or is immune to the weaker t1/t2 offmaps like anti-building barrage, precision strike, strafe, etc.

Once doctrine rework goes in there will be more precision strike style offmaps as well, making statis artillery less attractive.

[AmPM]

As Mysthalin said. 3 25Pdrs > 1 Priest.

3 of same unit type do better than 1 unit type. Always. I've been ignorant at one point 2 105s is nearly the cost as one Priest and Hummel while I've been calling it 3x. Anyway 3x 105 is only 80 fuel more than 1 Priest.

You pay a premium for the ability to move and more pop efficiency.  Three MP40 volks is more effective than a four man KCH squad, but that doesnt make the KCH squad weak. 

Mobile artillery also recharge faster and can relocate closer for much better accuracy.  Not to mention you can dodge or is immune to the weaker t1/t2 offmaps like anti-building barrage, precision strike, strafe, etc.

Once doctrine rework goes in there will be more precision strike style offmaps as well, making statis artillery less attractive.

Hopefully not any that comes down fast, the last thing the game needs is more offmap.

[Mysthalin]

Gamesguy, that's closer to 2 MP40 squads, not 3, in terms of cost. And I'd believe the KCH would be better solely owing to the fact they don't have 0.2 moving accuracy, thus making them far better at their designated assault role. The Priest/Hummel have nothing truly going for them in their barrage power if compared to the 25 pdr/105.

First off - both the priest and hummel cost more popcap to begin with : all you get is an extra AT gun with the priest if you opt to take it over double 25 pdrs. Is that significantly more pop-efficiency? Doubtful - double 25pdrs can pretty much tackle any enemy infantry with only a wickers MG to suppress it, and that leaves you 8 popcap at the very begining of the game to grab a pair of PIATs or ATGs(or a mix). The priest and AT gun combination would also get access to 11 popcap : I'd assume a lieutenant, bren squad and piat squad? Yet, you'd have quite a harder time versus enemy infantry.

We'd come to a similar conclusion if we compared the hummel to the mortar HT, which is far cheaper and quite capable in it's job.



And the main point of this thread is that you don't NEED to bring 2-3 25pdrs/105s at the same time. You can just keep calling them in one after the other, each time forcing the enemy to use up an offmap or a fast assault unit to kill tem. Whereas if you have a priest/hummel, a single determined push will get rid of your artilery piece. It all comes down toattritional value - in which the static artilery fares far better than their mobile counterparts. Don't forget that you can also re-crew both the 25 pdr and 105, resetting your cooldown - which can actually work to your advantage.

I also find it interesting you bring up the strafing run - considering it can't be used either against the 25 pdr or the 105.

Finally - the mobile arty is slow. It's speed serves to move up closer to barrage the enemy, and perhaps back to spawn - but for nothing much else. If any kind of unit actually gets near your priest/hummel, it's as good as dead - it won't be getting away.

[Firesparks]

Once doctrine rework goes in there will be more precision strike style offmaps as well, making statis artillery less attractive.

oh god, not more artillery spam

[gamesguy2]

Exactly, immobile artillery pieces aren't much more expensive then a couple light vehicles, so losing them does practically nothing and if you aren't buying creeping barrage, there is nothing but manpower and fuel involved, meaning immobile artillery pieces don't really have any risk, once again its a cheap and expendable unit with high pay-off, low risk unit tbh, a  couple support weapons and its easily paid for itself and if its lost, simply call in another one.

A stationary artillery piece dies horribly to priest/hummel.  They need to be cheap or they will be completely worthless against any offmap.

And stationary arty takes up a lot of pool if you spam them.

[DarkSoldierX]

My butterfly bombs would nothing to it and my henshel run might target it and damage it to 40% Hp but thats about it.

[Mysthalin]

Indeed, stationary artilery is more or less so immune to butterfly bombs, whereas your mobile arty will likely lose it's engine or even it's tracks to the bombs.

A stationary artillery piece dies horribly to priest/hummel

A hummel would lose to 2 Howitzers, though.

[Evilnrg]

As Mysthalin said. 3 25Pdrs > 1 Priest.

then use 3 x 25 prs instead ?

some people prefer 25pdrs some prefers 1 priest

besides arty spam is boring

[Tymathee]

Indeed, stationary artilery is more or less so immune to butterfly bombs, whereas your mobile arty will likely lose it's engine or even it's tracks to the bombs.

A stationary artillery piece dies horribly to priest/hummel

A hummel would lose to 2 Howitzers, though.

firing at the same time? maybe, but all a hummel needs is a single hit and the whole howie is dead. I used to regularly take out howies with my hummel company, i'd wait for them to fire then counter battery, boom dead howie, at least one will hit it.

[NightRain]

Gamesguy, Mobile Artillery by no means recharges FASTER they have exactly the SAME cooldown. BY VETERANCY Immobile gets FASTER reload (30 seconds) opposed to mobile (20 seconds).

Offmaps are dangerous to all artillery but loosing your immobile one means you don't lose all too much from your company. AS mysthalin said, loosing a Priest/Hummel is far more devestating than loosing a 25Pdr or 105mm.

Mysthalin and I've pointed out already, speed does not save it from engagement. It has no way escaping if it is caught. 105 and 25Pdr can at elast retreat off map with a single click to save vet. Priest and Hummel has ti sit in spawn in order to save their vet if they by some reason get attacked. Recrewing a lost weapon extends its life a lot too.

People has to as well realize that 105 has superior range compared to one on the Hummel. Hummel has to come closer in order to fire its shells at the 105s that can immidiately counter barrage at it.

I'm more or less repeating myself but I still have proven a point. Mobile Artillery is TOO expensive compared to immobile ones. Either immobile gets more expensive or mobile artillery gets a resonable pricing by going down in Doc tiers and getting a price decrease. No way is a Priest better than a Firefly (320 fuel vs 355 fuel) or a Hummel better than bunch of Mortar halftracks.

If people starts complaining about artillery spam, please do note that will the price go down or not there will still be exactly the same ammount of 105s and 25Pdrs, just no mobile artillery. The ammount of arty won't change- at all.

[Firesparks]

Gamesguy, Mobile Artillery by no means recharges FASTER they have exactly the SAME cooldown. BY VETERANCY Immobile gets FASTER reload (30 seconds) opposed to mobile (20 seconds).

Offmaps are dangerous to all artillery but loosing your immobile one means you don't lose all too much from your company. AS mysthalin said, loosing a Priest/Hummel is far more devestating than loosing a 25Pdr or 105mm.

Mysthalin and I've pointed out already, speed does not save it from engagement. It has no way escaping if it is caught. 105 and 25Pdr can at elast retreat off map with a single click to save vet. Priest and Hummel has ti sit in spawn in order to save their vet if they by some reason get attacked. Recrewing a lost weapon extends its life a lot too.

People has to as well realize that 105 has superior range compared to one on the Hummel. Hummel has to come closer in order to fire its shells at the 105s that can immidiately counter barrage at it.

I'm more or less repeating myself but I still have proven a point. Mobile Artillery is TOO expensive compared to immobile ones. Either immobile gets more expensive or mobile artillery gets a resonable pricing by going down in Doc tiers and getting a price decrease. No way is a Priest better than a Firefly (320 fuel vs 355 fuel) or a Hummel better than bunch of Mortar halftracks.

If people starts complaining about artillery spam, please do note that will the price go down or not there will still be exactly the same ammount of 105s and 25Pdrs, just no mobile artillery. The ammount of arty won't change- at all.

1) off map is dangerous to immobile piece because it can't move. Unless he hit you during the process of firing, the hummel is just going to move away.
2) The main point with mobile artillery is that you move after firing, usually back to the exit. The fact that the hummel will probably be  different place everytime it fire mean it's alot hard to track it down and hunt it. Most of the time people just park it next to the exit when they are not using it.
3) the exposed crew is a liability, not an advantage. It is not an advantage that the artillery crew is vulnerable to small arms and have to retreat if infantry got near it. The moblie arty is immune to smalls arms and grenade, and the hummel have more raw hit point compare to the relatively fragile gun piece to begin with. (400 vs 250) The hummel is not only mobile, it is also more durable.  

4) you haven't proven anything.

[NightRain]

I've proven that Immobile pieces are far more cheaper than mobile artillery and mobile artillery has only one advnatage that is mobility which is light defence. Moving away slowly from whatsoever.

Weak to small arms fire doesn't mean anything one can retreat the crew and recrew the 105 once the crew is off-field. Plus a triage can heal the gun and the crew extending their lives even further. But as Base, mobile artillery is too expensive. 3x more than a immobile one without there being any real reason for such high cost.

Mobility doesn't make a unit differ from its duty it only offers the shorter ranged unit unlimited range. If you get caught- it dies. There's no escape for Hummel OR for M7 Priest if caught into a combat situation. 355/360 fuel gone. As opposed to chasing off and destroying one 105 or 25Pdr. 160/140 fuel gone. Which one is higher ammount?

Once hummel or Priest barrages and hits something, enemy will see the unit's location via tactical and minimap. This means that they know the units general location and can bum rush it with rapid deployment units. Was it a Puma, M10, Tetty, AB, Stormtroopers whatsoever. Moving or staying still, there wont be much of a difference. Hummel and M7 Priest ofc can dodge a arty barrage but not a aircraft.

+ More for the offmap thing. There is a chance the gun survives and it can be recrewed. OR just bring in another one, after all enemy wasted an offmap on a cheap unit INSTEAD of that devious airborne/ranger/vet infantry blob that was finally caught in the open and supressed.

Doing a bombing run on a Hummel or a Henschel run on a Priest are worth the offmap. You just hurt a PE coy or Brit coy badly by removing a lot of fuel from them, and on top of that if they field another one you know that they are lacking vehicles.

What more do I have to say? I'm bascially repeating myself again from my previous posts.

[Mysthalin]

Not to mention that, seeing how inaccurate most artilery is due to drift - your static artilery isn't really all that much more in danger than mobile artilery.

[Tymathee]

i still don't see a reason to lower their price to be honest. I don't want to see multiple hummels, and priests out on the field or callies. i see you didn't mention the callie, i guess it's good enough eh?

[gamesguy2]

I've proven that Immobile pieces are far more cheaper than mobile artillery and mobile artillery has only one advnatage that is mobility which is light defence. Moving away slowly from whatsoever.

Mobility is a huge advantage.  Despite shorter range and no ability to counter barrage, nebels live far longer than howies.  A hummel/priest is much more durable.

Weak to small arms fire doesn't mean anything one can retreat the crew and recrew the 105 once the crew is off-field. Plus a triage can heal the gun and the crew extending their lives even further. But as Base, mobile artillery is too expensive. 3x more than a immobile one without there being any real reason for such high cost.

Weakness to small arms means I can kill your vet crew and your recrew will be a lot weaker.  Not to mention I can steal your gun and barrage you.  Forcing you to bring in small arms to kill it or risk losing the gun.

Mobility doesn't make a unit differ from its duty it only offers the shorter ranged unit unlimited range. If you get caught- it dies. There's no escape for Hummel OR for M7 Priest if caught into a combat situation. 355/360 fuel gone. As opposed to chasing off and destroying one 105 or 25Pdr. 160/140 fuel gone. Which one is higher ammount?

Hummel's range is 25 shorter than the 105, stop trying to pretend like this matters.  In addition, a mobile unit is far harder to hunt down than an immobile one.

Once hummel or Priest barrages and hits something, enemy will see the unit's location via tactical and minimap. This means that they know the units general location and can bum rush it with rapid deployment units. Was it a Puma, M10, Tetty, AB, Stormtroopers whatsoever. Moving or staying still, there wont be much of a difference. Hummel and M7 Priest ofc can dodge a arty barrage but not a aircraft.

Did you just call stormtroopers a "rapid reaction force"?

And your rapid reaction force runs into defenses and die horribly.  Good job losing units for nothing.  Any good player will protect their expensive artillery piece and rushing in without scouting is just asking to get baited and die.

Hummel can dodge a plane easilly.  You have to use recon run first, which gives a hummel plenty of warning. 

+ More for the offmap thing. There is a chance the gun survives and it can be recrewed. OR just bring in another one, after all enemy wasted an offmap on a cheap unit INSTEAD of that devious airborne/ranger/vet infantry blob that was finally caught in the open and supressed.

The only offmap I can think of that would leave the gun intact is strafing run.  And for obvious reasons you're not going to be strafing your own arty.  Everything else will kill the gun.

Doing a bombing run on a Hummel or a Henschel run on a Priest are worth the offmap. You just hurt a PE coy or Brit coy badly by removing a lot of fuel from them, and on top of that if they field another one you know that they are lacking vehicles.

What more do I have to say? I'm bascially repeating myself again from my previous posts.

Good luck hitting a hummel with bombing run, and henschel only works if you can maintain vision.

[NightRain]

Nebels live only if they are not insta gibbed like they usually are. My 25Pdr coy loves Nebelwerfers as they are easy to barrage. They are only fast on the road.

Lionel is best example with Howy crews. Whenever he sees volks reach 70 meters away from his gun he retreats the crew and lets the support of that gun (as you said, the WELL LAID DEFENCES) to kill the unit then he just calls in inf and recrews his toys once again. THAT is if he retreats the crew. This works with everyone else too.

Yet why the huge cost? 25 SHORTER range than on a much much cheaper unit? Hummel is harder to vet up too due to vet modifiers being different. + Hummel has to kill far more than the 105 or 25Pdr to become cost effective. Destroying 1 105 or 25Pdr still means that its not cost effective.

Stormtroopers aren't exactly 'rapid' but you can consider them as rapid deployment if they lurk behind enemy lines. (high risk but some people take it, ie 1 shreck stormtrooper is a nice pay off for 1 Priest. 300 manpower 140 mun vs 465 manpower 355 fuel) besides Puma's can use the corners of maps (ie Tanteville's corner) or Monte Cassino's Corner (in a 3vs3)  or abbe corner. There are a lot of loop holes in a defence especially in a 3vs3 map. in a 2vs2 it is a bit different. No unit but M8, M10 is rapid enough to stop those 2 Pumas that charge through the flanks to kill that priest or 2 M10s or 2 m8s that charge that hummel. Hummel can't escape only a pair of 50mm might be in time to destroy those chargers. Only thing brits can toss in is a MMG carrier (their fast response units) to respond that clowncar(s) or 5 cm Pumas.

I've had 105 survive a firestorm though crew got toasted. V1 is random and might hit or might not hit. 280mm kills immidiately etc etc, there's always a chance of survival. If the unit DOES die just call in another one. I mean its only 160/140 fuel right? Infantry companies are more for infantry units and less vehicles so they got that extra fuel.

AB Pathfinder and Mechanized Scouts Ketten. AB Pathfinder is practically a scout unit that can snipe infantry no?

[Mysthalin]

Good luck relying on a V1 to hit a howitzer, or on a firestorm to completely kill the gun.
And oh look - you just forced the enemy to use a T2/T3 unlock to kill your T1/T0 artilery piece. Fair trade, tbh, considering what both the V1 and the Firestorm are capable of.

What other arty is there? Rocket Arty? Yes, that is some very accurate arty, now isn't it? To my knowledge and experience using it - you're probably more likely to hit a priest with it than a howitzer, frankly due to the enemy moving away with the priest and likely moving into the rocket arty once it drifts away, whereas the howitzer will just stand there, watching the rain around it.
Precision Strike/Napalm Strike? Yeah, that's more or less so the only two things I can think of that might actually pose a threath to the static arty, while being relatively harmless against the priest. They're T2/T3 respectively - quite a worthy tradeoff, yet again.

On a side note - the enemy is capped at 2 offmaps per game. You're not capped to 2 howitzers/25pdrs.