[us] airborne doctrine too powerful.

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[jackmccrack]

Airborne RR walks up -> goodbye basically all light vehicles

[Firesparks]

No, I like to remove unnecessary baggage. Airborne RRs being too powerful is the topic, not "Airborne doctrine is too powerful". The fact that we're dealing with shermans and at guns and rifles oh my in the first place is practically going too far, to be frank.

If you want to nerf RRs on the basis of one doctrine ability, how about you petition to nerf the ability instead of the RR?

topic and thread evolve. Originally I just complained about RR but now I'm started to think it's also because of the doctrine ability as well..
we don't need two separate topic from the same person complaining about the airborne doctrine.

[Kruno]

Heres a tip! Fix those healthbuffs for AB. A 6 man squad that has the health of a sherman but the dodgability of M8, yet the accursey of a sniper with the anti- surpression abilities of Jesus and the retreating speed of a frenchman, you wonder why they are so good.

They are like ultimate unit. 

[Mysthalin]

I still fail to see how 2 pumas and a bike don't solve all your AB RR problems.

Alternatives include 2 pumas with omniscience(no need for bike) or 2 pumas and a bike with lightning war. Just for even more frustration for the AB player as he desperately tries to catch you.

[LeoPhone]

I still fail to see how 2 pumas and a bike don't solve all your AB RR problems.

Alternatives include 2 pumas with omniscience(no need for bike) or 2 pumas and a bike with lightning war. Just for even more frustration for the AB player as he desperately tries to catch you.

lightning war units cant see the AB. they have 0 sight.

[Malevolence]

lightning war units cant see the AB. they have 0 sight.

Lightning war, not blitzkrieg.

topic and thread evolve. Originally I just complained about RR but now I'm started to think it's also because of the doctrine ability as well..
we don't need two separate topic from the same person complaining about the airborne doctrine.

All threads posted in the balance forum must be titled correctly with the issue you wish to discuss and the faction it relates to, for example:

[CW] Sapper Minesweeper
[US] Riflemen Sticky Bombs

If you wish to discuss airborne doctrines, or airborne doctrines and their relation to RRs, make another thread with the appropriate title. This thread is explicitly about RRs being OP or not.

[Smokaz]

necro, but i have to agree with some of the points in this thread. AB right now is disgusting

[Groundfire]

AB OP or luft extremely UP?

Pick one or the other tbh.

AB has always been strong vs. PE
I personally cant see any claim that AB is too strong vs. wehr.

[Firesparks]

right now I'm more inclined to nerf the doctrine rather than the unit themselves. The two biggest offender I think is the +20% penetration and raid.

At eagle should be decreased to +10% bonus, (it would still be effective against light vehicle, but tanks would fare better)provide +10 bonus.

Raid could be decreased to provide 4/5 extra pop instead of the current 6. This way the Airborne doesn't have an extra squad straight from the start.

[spinn72]

right now I'm more inclined to nerf the doctrine rather than the unit themselves. The two biggest offender I think is the +20% penetration and raid.

At eagle should be decreased to +10% bonus, (it would still be effective against light vehicle, but tanks would fare better)provide +10 bonus.

Raid could be decreased to provide 4/5 extra pop instead of the current 6. This way the Airborne doesn't have an extra squad straight from the start.

+1.

Only the Easy company tree needs nerfing. I can see problems with Operation Overlord when it's released, it's basically a blanket buff making all the main AB units MUCH better, besides that, it's all good.

Might want to look at raising the SP costs for Strafing runs too. All the lvl 9 airborners are able to purchase all offmaps for 11pp per game, which by the end of that game you'll get it back.

[BigDick]

AB OP or luft extremely UP?

Pick one or the other tbh.

AB has always been strong vs. PE
I personally cant see any claim that AB is too strong vs. wehr.

that is not just luftwaffe there are many doctrines that are just crap e.g. like terror, blitz, defensive...
i think airborne is (aside with armor) the strongest doctrine and actually doctrines should be strong and vet free and weak imho

so a balancing can be to take airborne as doctrine how it should be and buff some other doctrines

[Smokaz]

that is not just luftwaffe there are many doctrines that are just crap e.g. like terror, blitz, defensive...
i think airborne is (aside with armor) the strongest doctrine and actually doctrines should be strong and vet free and weak imho

so a balancing can be to take airborne as doctrine how it should be and buff some other doctrines

So basically wehrmacht is crap all over and 2/3 of the american doctrines are the strongest?

[BigDick]

the wehrmacht doctrines are crap that basically made me loosing interest in playing my wehr profiles
i can't say about 2/3 or 3/3 of us doctrines since i only played armor and airborne since last doctrine rework
and these both are really strong

maybe infantry is kicking ass too can't comment on

[Ran]

I have played about 6 games now with A T4 Terror Company with Heavy Support. Against Airbourne Opponents I had the following observations;

1. A pack of AB RR will destroy my paks in 1 salvo, they seem to have a long range and dont seem to miss much.

2. I have vet 2-3 KCH with oakleaves and Assault Grenades. 2 of my squads went up against 2 AB Bar squads. We both got seattled and started duking it out. I push assault grenades (1 use for 50Mu) and the AB guys fire up and run away. Reading past forum notes that FireUP penalises AB heavily I think ummm right and pursue them across the map untill they exhaust their fireup. It seemed to last for a long time. I catch up we seatlle back into the slugging match but still my KCH seem to be loosing the firefight. Also my KCH are what 360MP / 130MU just for startes then add 25 + 50 for assault nades and med kits. I assume this is way more than an airbourne bar squad.


This seems shit. How is it that the best elite squads I can have at vet 2/3 cant even go head to head with the AB sqds even after the so called penalties on the fire up?

I dare not pursue with armour because its likely to get stickied and fucked.

This has happened numerous times but the last game highlighted it quite clearly.

3. The only effective counter seems to be mtrs and nebels and you have to be fairly lucky or good at guessing your opponents next move ahead and of course the AB drop behind your lines can fuck them up easily as well.

4. All my support weapons are effectively countered by fire-up.If I take the risk and pursue whihc I do on a regular basis I run right into MGs and  my assualt inf end up being suppressed then destroyed in detail.



5. I spend an enormous amount on a KT whihc becomes cannon fodder when a squad runs up and stickeis it, the next most powerful tool inmy chest after my assualt inf, is it right that a massive tool like this is rendered almost ineffective by a squad with a sticky?

Something is very out of balance here I think.

[WriterX]

ABs have Sticky Bombs? I thought only basic infantry has Stickies.

[LeoPhone]

ABs have Sticky Bombs? I thought only basic infantry has Stickies.

ABs have freaking everything. even mines.

[WriterX]

Ah, I only just noticed. There are "ABs" and "AB Riflemen". I wait for the day AB Shermans appear.

[Smokaz]

The AB mines really piss me off

[23down]

I couldn't agree more on this... Even a not so good player can kick ass with Airbornes under his command.

Sprint - Smoke - AT combined with the Airborneranger or regular Rangers make em nearly invulnerable.

While it is totally ok in 1 vs 1 games it is really hard nearly impossible to play as germans Wehr or PE against massive unit amounts of the different players. I've played many games now even with very skilled players playing this since your first release. They are also disappointed.

Facts (my opinion)

-German soldiers both sides are cannonfodder even worse than it was in VCOH.
-to good accurate rate for Airborne Ranger\Regular Rangers on tanks and on inf.
-Damage rate to strong
-To many extras for those 2 units - Sprint , Smoke , AT & Rifles combined with their damage rate make em nearly invulnerable.

Many will surely agrue that this is not true and I and the others I've played with just don't have skills and are whining.. Let me tell them that I'm playing RTS since Amiga beginning with DuneII so in my case it's not a matter of a lacking skill. It's just a simple matter of unbalance. Even VCOH was not that unbalanced.


Possible Solutions: Reduce Damage rate for the specific units.
Remove 1 feature for them like sprint just as an example.
Make em a bit more expensive on Inf Points or Manpower so that people can't just commence you to 80% with them.
Or increase strenghts of the german inf units back to to a worth closer the original VCOH.
Inrease german inf accuracy a little more.
There are many possiblities you could choose from.


Little combat example: 5 of my squads all with SMGs equipped vs 6 others attacking me, storming me. I did kill 1 squad of them but lost in a matter of really 7 seconds all of my 5 squads. The units were no veteran units nor his nor mine.

In the end it's a huge disappointment to see that many US players playing with the Airborne Doctrine because they know that they are winning with that very easily. The other doctrines are barely used it's a shame.

While here is so often the talk about tactics in this great mod. Well I must say in my many games so far I haven't seen much of it except the Airborne\Ranger spam method which I would not call a tactic.

All in all a fantastic mod so far but it still has a long way to go before you or I can call it balanced.

[Smokaz]

Mm, dune. Hardcore.

Well me, the one thing that irks me compared to the old EIR is the fact that grenadier vet doesn't make them LMG killing machines anymore. LMG's and vetted AI grenadiers just doesn't have the same deny role anymore. If I remember correctly, they gained elite armor with vet 2 back in old EIR. They were so nice to play with. Back in the day it was sucide to rush grenadier lmgs cause they outlasted you, now you barely see LMG's used for anything other than hiding in buildings

The Era of double LMG's on RTC somehow dissapared, zeal which was the primary way to buff LMG's got taken out. It's just not fun to play with LMG grenadiers.