[us] Airborne Sniper

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[Demon767]

Firesparks, i never endorsed Mysts opinion. I stopped looking into that thread ages back so i was unable to say that i disagreed with him.

I dont entirely agree on how brn put his idea. but i agree that some thing has draw backs etc etc im not going to get into it.

Brn like mysts believe that its better customisation
i believe that doctrine units have to be better in one way or another to their original equivalent. same arguements, different wording.

[EliteGren]

The Commando Sniper is in no way underpowered. You just have to use it 'differently'. It was the unit that came in and was a game turner when used correctly, and i can savely say it has won me many, many games I would have lost without it.

Anyway, you can't compare the AB sniper to the Commando Sniper because they are both entirely different units and function as such, despite both having enough LOS to fire from their maximum range. They require different playstyles compared to normal snipers, come with weaknesses and strenghts, learn to maximize the strengh of your unit and it will work fine.

[MittinsKittens]

God that commando sniper is a bitch, I can remember someone using it SO well that I nearly rage quitted a game simply because it was doing his job and it was being supported pretty well too
But yeah, don't really know what to say about the AB sniper besides its probably fine as it is
Oh, and Fire, I feel that Doc stuff should be better then the stuff they replace personally, otherwise, what's the point of taking them, or at least, provide a different playstyle that suits you. If it doesn't do either one of them, then seriously, what's the point since no-one will feel the need to gey it

[Smokaz]

FYI, this thread started with a specific question, is the AB sniper too good against pe inf?

I think your answer is something like this: If PE has a medium infantry type, which pricing/hp/etc dictates that only FSJ are, AB sniper is only overpowered against them. Ab sniper is apparently supposed to deal 65 hp worth of damage, possibly kill, and only medium infantry or above have this much health.

If the EIRR wants PE to have non-doctrinal medium inf, remove the soldier armor for them and give them higher hp. It was nice when we tried it a while back, and PE lost it in a maelstrom because brits got OP with the same change

[Tymathee]

I personally find nothing wrong with PE infantry, so they're weak against snipers, my brits get torched by flamers more so than my rifles when i see flame pio's come and i'm brits i run in fear cuz they're weak against fire, and if I see a sniper i laugh cuz i've always got a recon tommy on the field and that thing is going to die eventually no matter what.

PE infantry get soldier armor which get a 25% damage buff against most incoming fire but take a full 100% against sniper fire, they're supposed to be weak vs snipers. PE Infantry kinda get shafted because they're meant to be used like americans use airborne en masse but since their buffs have been taken away.

Fieldcraft - 67% faster capture rate
Vet Sargent - 25% more experience, 25% suppression resistance
Group Zeal

Then when you think about the fact that PE infantry's strength was the fact that they all repair but in EIRR they dont you take away a huge selling point for them, so now they're just basic infantry.

Just another thing to point out. in vcoh pe infantry are 255 mp rifles are 270 which is kinda interesting because thats 255mp for 3 guys and 270 for 6, so in essence relic was saying a 3 man panzer gren is almost as good as a 6 man rifle squad put in an extra man and they're better than rifles. Put one of these babies in a house with a g43 and for some reason they get awesome. (g43 = rapid fire kar basically statswise)

From someone that used to play a lot of PE but got tired of them, snipers are the PE infantry's main drawback but and a big butt, they're a survivable bunch of bitches especially behind cover and in houses where their damage buff really kicks in. its interesting to note that most infantry weapons get a 25% bonus in open and negative so the 25% buff that soldier armor gives gets negated basically but behind green cover, the .75 is stacked with the .50 and garrisoned its .75 + .75% damage buff.

So, all this is to say, yes PE infantry are weak vs snipers thats how it is. So what do you do about it? Learn to counter it. Make a couple call ins that you'll use to counter snipers. Now, whats funny is that PE have REALLY good options against snipers.

The Schwimmwagen takes the best from the Bike and jeep and puts it together. good health, great gun, fast, great acceleration and deceleration. Pair it with a Ketten which gets a 30 unit detection radius as opposed to 18 for the bike, type166 and jeep.

Put a scout car with a Ketten as well its normal gun is just like the jeeps or bikes with a bit more strength it's completely identical to the mg42 bike with 1 more damage and a bit more suppressed. Or use lock down, even an AB sniper or heck AB have hard time against the scout car mg42 lock down, it'll either run away or run off field. You can also use the g43 on it and slow it so it can't fire up and get away if you really want to kill it.  Ketten = find sniper, g43 slow it, scout car rapes it. It's a bit much but its what you have to do, if anyone has more issues vs it its' Wehr because PE have such good options to take out snipers. There's also the LAT, focus fire rapes snipers. The Hotchkiss gun is real good vs infantry as well.

[Spartan_Marine88]

I think what we should stop and think about is that someone finds issue with a SNIPER being able to 1-SHOT INFANTRY. I mean i understand the removal of the headshot crit, but if you really wanted him to be a sniper that can't one shot inf call him a Marksman. Something that doesn't inspire the image of brains flying everywhere with each shot

[Groundfire]

If the original intent for the AB marksman was to be a durable half-sniper only able to oneshot kill basic infantry squads, I think we the unit should stick to these guidelines. But then i kinda do see a problem with this considering PE has the only 4 man, highly used, basic infantry squad. Pgrens are a half step between basic infantry and medium infantry, it falls into a gray area and pgrens get the short straw because of it.

Maybe a compromise is in order? give a damage reduction vs. soldier armor but give the sniper crits back to soldier armor and make it like the terror sniper where there's only a 50/50 chance of an insta kill. the other 50%, its just damage thats done.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Maybe a compromise is in order? give a damage reduction vs. soldier armor but give the sniper crits back to soldier armor and make it like the terror sniper where there's only a 50/50 chance of an insta kill. the other 50%, its just damage thats done.

I think thats how it should be done in the first place tbh, i know they were trying to not create an identical unit but taking headshots completley away from a sniper means he just isn't a sniper anymore just John Rambo (although i like to think thats more my LT with a bar but hey)

[Tymathee]

I think what we should stop and think about is that someone finds issue with a SNIPER being able to 1-SHOT INFANTRY. I mean i understand the removal of the headshot crit, but if you really wanted him to be a sniper that can't one shot inf call him a Marksman. Something that doesn't inspire the image of brains flying everywhere with each shot

it is called an airborne marksman...at least in the original description when the doctrine image was posted, it just wasn't put that way on the launcher but it's essentially an Airborne Marksman, especially cuz of the LOS increase.

[Spartan_Marine88]

it is called an airborne marksman...at least in the original description when the doctrine image was posted, it just wasn't put that way on the launcher but it's essentially an Airborne Marksman, especially cuz of the LOS increase.

Still even a marksman gets headshots everynow and then

[Tymathee]

Still even a marksman gets headshots everynow and then

which is why he can one shot kill basic infantry but not the better ones. it can't even one shot grenadiers

[Firesparks]

The Commando Sniper is in no way underpowered. You just have to use it 'differently'. It was the unit that came in and was a game turner when used correctly, and i can savely say it has won me many, many games I would have lost without it.

Anyway, you can't compare the AB sniper to the Commando Sniper because they are both entirely different units and function as such, despite both having enough LOS to fire from their maximum range. They require different playstyles compared to normal snipers, come with weaknesses and strenghts, learn to maximize the strengh of your unit and it will work fine.

God that commando sniper is a bitch, I can remember someone using it SO well that I nearly rage quitted a game simply because it was doing his job and it was being supported pretty well too
But yeah, don't really know what to say about the AB sniper besides its probably fine as it is
Oh, and Fire, I feel that Doc stuff should be better then the stuff they replace personally, otherwise, what's the point of taking them, or at least, provide a different playstyle that suits you. If it doesn't do either one of them, then seriously, what's the point since no-one will feel the need to gey it

The way I see it the commando sniper's weakness to normal sniper is crippling, even if its extended sight and smoke make it much more useful against normal units. You keep saying that the Commandos sniper need a different approach but yet you haven't bothered to tell me what this approach is.

You guys would say I'm too in love with stats reading but you haven't shared your experience of using commandos sniper when wehr sniper is on the field or your strategy against the wehr sniper.

Of my own experience and everything I know about sniper tactics tells me that the commando sniper have a crippling weakness against lurking sniper, yet you guys feels differently.

The Airborne RR thread I made a while give me a couple of good strategy against Airborne. (scout car with mg42 and g43 slow in particular). But this thread and the other thread doesn't really tell me anything I don't know already. It's basic PE anti sniper tactic to use scout car, slow, schimm, suicide Inf HT, but the Airborne RR is also one of the best weapon against vehicle and the AB sniper is extra tough. If you guys don't want to counter my argument with stats then at least tell me some new strat I don't know.

[EliteGren]

The trick is to attack move and take a shot then pull back to reload. If you see an enemy sniper is on the field you start to constantly switch sides and avoid the enemy sniper and take it out somehow else. You can start thinking of different techniques (moving up a recon in bren carrier then move CSniper into range would be a possibility.)

[AmPM]

Also, best PE anti-sniper = Vampire + MTHT =) Drop burning death on its ass, and its a unit combination you should have out anyway.

[Tymathee]

Oh yeah i forgot about that ampm, that was my fav. use the vamp and just avoid the sniper pretty much lol or show it to them, they usually wont even bother getting the sniper close 2 u

[Spartan_Marine88]

Oh yeah i forgot about that ampm, that was my fav. use the vamp and just avoid the sniper pretty much lol or show it to them, they usually wont even bother getting the sniper close 2 u

Something i learned about Vamps as Commandoes

If you see one put a RAF strike on it, its usually guarded by about 2-3 inf/armor

[Tymathee]

Something i learned about Vamps as Commandoes

If you see one put a RAF strike on it, its usually guarded by about 2-3 inf/armor

I usually just arty around it or drop an off map near it or on it.. they're dangerous in the right hands

[AmPM]

That's why you always have 2 of any support unit as PE.

2 Muni HTs, 2 Mortar HTs, 2 Vamps, 2 Scout cars or more, etc.

Make them divide their offmaps or use some as bait.

[Demon767]

mmmk... Commando has a weakness against sniper.. whats your point? its a disadvantage but also advantage as you have options to negate that and you will always retain vet cuz of the 2nd man.

Its a counter.

[Firesparks]

mmmk... Commando has a weakness against sniper.. whats your point? its a disadvantage but also advantage as you have options to negate that and you will always retain vet cuz of the 2nd man.

Its a counter.

since we're comparing ab sniper to the Comm Sniper...

The ab sniper is quite durable himself considering he has heroic armor, and immune to the sniper' one shot kill as well. I haven't try it myself, but according to the stats it would take 3 sniper shot to kill the AB sniper. The ab sniper have 75 health and heroic armor. The g43 sniper deal 29.7 against heroic armor. In any case it take at least 2 sniper shot.

The Comm sniper might be able to retreat better than the normal sniper, but for the AB sniper is a matter of healing if he took a shot or retreat if there's no healing.

Of course, there's the difference between fire up + cloak and smoke, and the comm sniper do have a smg gunner but I don't think the added addition of the smg makes that much of a difference.

The AB sniper have 45 sight and range compare to the 55 sight and 50 range of the Comm sniper duo. This make comm sniper better at sniping and spotting compare to the ab sniper, but I don't think it's enough for a trade off considering the comm Sniper is much weaker against sniper than the AB sniper is.

Damage wise the AB sniper lack the one-hit kill against gren and storm compared to the normal sniper rifle, but the AB sniper have a faster fire rate to compensate. This mean the AB sniper is actually more deadly against volks and the like, and probably more efficient against KCH as well.

The comm still have the one-shot-kill against other sniper, but the ab sniper himself still deals a noticeable amount of damage even if it's not a one-hit kill. If you can goad the wehr sniper into exposing himself against a commando... but at this point it's mainly theory-crafting.

Keep in mind that the Comm sniper is a 500 mp 200 mu t3 unlock and the ab 500 mp 250 mu t2 unlock. Is the difference of 50 mu big enough to compensate for the extra point cost?

While the commandos sniper can be useful if applied well, it seems to me the AB sniper is just superior.