Evolution: The ramfications of mutations And the necessity for Information

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[brn4meplz]

So bashing religion/God is entirely O.K. and delivers absolutely no opinion or bias whatsoever? Rofl I refuse to even consider half the people's arguments in this thread due to them not even considering the fact that God possibly always existed and that he created man.

Bashing Religion/God is entirely OK as long as it stays on a forum. You simply don't have to read it. The moment someone takes it to PM's or in game chat or is excessively aggressive about it, then steps will be taken to deal with it.

I get religious people at my door all the time. They always ask the same thing and my answer is always the same. I don't run around talking about my views/beliefs because it's irrelevant. It serves only to annoy and anger other people. I've never understood the need for religious people to spread their belief through force.(verbal or otherwise) Likewise I don't understand the need for the opposite spectrum of people to attempt to shatter the faith of people who have it. You are safer not reading/paying attention to it.

If I prescribed to a Faith that required me to convert other people I'd seriously consider looking at the moral tenets of that faith. In the event of a creator the doctrine of having to convert people to your faith goes against Mankind's individualistic nature.

My short answer to people is: Don't bother me and I won't bother you.

[Spartan_Marine88]

maybe... We are god?? OOooohoOOOOo has anyone heard of that theory... about how god is infact just an astral subconcious part of our brain that connects all human beings together O.o that he infact is not solid Or an object as we imagine him to be! you guys should look into it.. Its deviating and greatreaad! BUT i FORGOT the name of that theory.. so good luck coarxing it from the great world wide web.

Yeah, i have heard that theory worshipped by every lazy ass friend that i have, you know the ones fired every other week, still at home having thier wow accounts being paid by thier mommy and daddy.

Its gotten to the point that its become the very reason i refuse to talk to them as they try to preach thier oneness with the universe and state how they have no desire for material wealth and all the do at home is talk about how uber thier druid is and just how godly thier gear is.

As i told my teacher what i though Philosophy truly was.

A bunch of old men who have destroyed every aspect of thier life and have become so embittered and angry with the world they convince themselves that there really is no world and nothing but themselves exist, which means they never screwed anything up to begin with

[arsonist123]

look at the link i posted zzzzz
your'e a fag for assuming and judging.

okay spartan.. you want to act like an ass go ahead...
fuck nvm.

[Spartan_Marine88]

okay spartan.. you want to act like an ass go ahead... 

Im not, im just tired of every lazy ass stoner friend that i have, sitting back and telling me how they have realized the truth, start quoting that bs how we are all connected and one, and then you find out they all spend 15 hours a day playing mmo's and not one of them has ever held a job for over a month.

[HexaFighter]

@ sharpshooter, concerning your last post
personally i am agnostic. that means i don't believe in god unless you prove to me its existence. So far there is not enough evidence to support the claim of its existence or deny it.

to claim that  god created man shows that you already believe in its existence. and are beyond the point of no return in terms of reason.

furthermore the wording of your post goes to show the endoctrination that people are subjected to.
from your wording, god is a He..o really
from your wording god is alone..o really
where is your evidence man?
what if there are multiple gods?

if you refuse to hear people who deny god, i agree with you solely because i am agnostic and don't like to disregard possibilities.
However your faith in god is not a base on which to reason

[Spartan_Marine88]

@ sharpshooter, concerning your last post
personally i am agnostic. that means i don't believe in god unless you prove to me its existence. So far there is not enough evidence to support the claim of its existence or deny it.

Thats Athiest and not agnostic

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable. (stolen off wikipedia not exactly accurate but close enough)

And personally i would rather beleive in God as a default setting, as there is 0 proof science has put forward to the lack of existance. The very way they treat the little amount of science dedicating to ghost hunting shows just how embarrasing it is for them to have even a little evidence. And if go turns out not to exist and i die well ill be too dead to care. And if he does exist well, got my ass covered.

[HexaFighter]

@ spartan on philosophy
"A bunch of old men who have destroyed every aspect of thier life and have become so embittered and angry with the world they convince themselves that there really is no world and nothing but themselves exist, which means they never screwed anything up to begin with"

i beg you to change your view on philosophy for it has a meaning in your life greater than you think and not just old men thinking about obscure subjects.
philosophy is basically thinking with language. it is essentially mathematics with words.
this whole thread is philosophy.
everytime you argument with someone you are philosophysing
philosophy is essentially logic at work.

[Spartan_Marine88]

@ spartan on philosophy
"A bunch of old men who have destroyed every aspect of thier life and have become so embittered and angry with the world they convince themselves that there really is no world and nothing but themselves exist, which means they never screwed anything up to begin with"

I more meant the existentialism branch of philosophy

(i am tired now will pick this back up in the morning it be late)

[HexaFighter]

@ spartan marine on agnosticism
too bad you read only the first few lines of this wiki
i know what i'm talking about

if science hasn't given any evidence that god does not exist, science has also not given evidence that it exists neither has your cult. you are working on blind faith

also concerning the part where you got your ass covered..you must be refering to the part in christian litterature that says believe in god and you will go to heaven
enculturation/endoctrination by fellow men since childhood generally does not produce other results than this
what makes you think god, if it exists, cares about you?

the plurality of litterature on god, whether its straigh cult stories or studies might point us to the fact that there is indeed a phenomenon at work.

on the other hand, if you were raised elsewhere in the world, assuming you are from the states, you might have different beliefs concerning what having your ass covered means.

[Sharpshooter824]

Bashing Religion/God is entirely OK as long as it stays on a forum. You simply don't have to read it. The moment someone takes it to PM's or in game chat or is excessively aggressive about it, then steps will be taken to deal with it.

I get religious people at my door all the time. They always ask the same thing and my answer is always the same. I don't run around talking about my views/beliefs because it's irrelevant. It serves only to annoy and anger other people. I've never understood the need for religious people to spread their belief through force.(verbal or otherwise) Likewise I don't understand the need for the opposite spectrum of people to attempt to shatter the faith of people who have it. You are safer not reading/paying attention to it.

If I prescribed to a Faith that required me to convert other people I'd seriously consider looking at the moral tenets of that faith. In the event of a creator the doctrine of having to convert people to your faith goes against Mankind's individualistic nature.

My short answer to people is: Don't bother me and I won't bother you.

Sure seems like people are forcing evolution and crap down our throats, bias textbooks in schools, and the whole lot

@ Hexafighter, i've read every single post in this thread, stop trolling

[HexaFighter]

"Sure seems like people are forcing evolution and crap down our throats, bias textbooks in schools, and the whole lot"

the last nail expressing your lack of doubt
pure reason is win
pure faith is lose

as for the trolling part. just lol

[Sharpshooter824]

@ sharpshooter, concerning your last post
personally i am agnostic. that means i don't believe in god unless you prove to me its existence. So far there is not enough evidence to support the claim of its existence or deny it.

to claim that  god created man shows that you already believe in its existence. and are beyond the point of no return in terms of reason.

furthermore the wording of your post goes to show the endoctrination that people are subjected to.
from your wording, god is a He..o really
from your wording god is alone..o really
where is your evidence man?
what if there are multiple gods?

if you refuse to hear people who deny god, i agree with you solely because i am agnostic and don't like to disregard possibilities.
However your faith in god is not a base on which to reason

How is it not a base to reason, just like evolution's base is that everything happened by chance, why couldn't the earth have been created by a God? Think about it, if the sun we're just a litttle hotter or colder we could burn/freeze to death, thanks to something called the atmosphere we can live on this planet, don't tell me that all didn't just happen by chance, everyone is free to have their own opinions but apparently some aren't even tolerated at all.

[HexaFighter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
SCIENTIFIC METHOD
are you following it in proving god?

btw your opinion is tolerated and appreciated

[Masacree]

And personally i would rather beleive in God as a default setting, as there is 0 proof science has put forward to the lack of existance. The very way they treat the little amount of science dedicating to ghost hunting shows just how embarrasing it is for them to have even a little evidence. And if go turns out not to exist and i die well ill be too dead to care. And if he does exist well, got my ass covered.

The burden of proof rests on the people who make the claim. Further, science doesn't investigate claims that are unfalsifiable, because they simply have no bearing on reality. Now, if a god did in fact interact with the world, then the only proof would be an event that is unexplainable through any other means. Science tends towards the simplest explanations of phenomena (Occam's razor) and the work of a god requires far more assumptions and is more complicated than a naturalistic explanation.

A bunch of old men who have destroyed every aspect of thier life and have become so embittered and angry with the world they convince themselves that there really is no world and nothing but themselves exist, which means they never screwed anything up to begin with

You clearly haven't read enough (any?) philosophy. Only a small subset of philosophers are skeptical. So much of philosophy (and Science!) is discovering the beauty of the world, and understanding what higher values like Justice and Morality are. I don't know how you could possibly characterize the ethics of care as 'embittered.'

As far as existentialism is concerned, I never saw it as depressing. It just means humans have to create their own meaning in life, as opposed to following preset norms.

[Masacree]

How is it not a base to reason, just like evolution's base is that everything happened by chance, why couldn't the earth have been created by a God? Think about it, if the sun we're just a litttle hotter or colder we could burn/freeze to death, thanks to something called the atmosphere we can live on this planet, don't tell me that all didn't just happen by chance, everyone is free to have their own opinions but apparently some aren't even tolerated at all.

The reason is because such an explanation requires an unverifiable assumption (ie. that god exists). As such, it can't be characterized as science.

Also, opinions are irrelevant in science. All that matters are facts. Science is very intolerant of wrong ideas. I mean, when was the last time you heard of the ether? Now, obviously if you have some empirical data to back up your claims, then we can evaluate it in a scientific context. Until then, your opinion should certainly not be considered science.

[Sharpshooter824]

The reason is because such an explanation requires an unverifiable assumption (ie. that god exists). As such, it can't be characterized as science.

the exact same is true about evolution, an unverifiable assumption that everything just happened by chance

[HexaFighter]

sharpshooter do not fall in the trap so many fall into.
evolution does not explain the origin of life. nail it in brain.
if you wanna talk about the origin of life ok
it seems you see it as believing in either that it occured by chance
or that god did it.
well saying that it happened by chance is dumbing it down atrociously.
there are complex physical and chemical phenomenon at work that might include a bit of randomness
just like when you play COH. when you play COH there is a game engine with rules, and things happen within allowed limits.

[Voleron]

the exact same is true about evolution, an unverifiable assumption that everything just happened by chance

Incorrect. That is not what Evolution is about.  It make no assumptions or theories regarding the core origin of life.

What Evolution is on about is explaining the genetic mutation and diversity that occurs over a long period of time; that is, on the order of hundreds of thousands, generally millions of years. Note this is the mutation of existing life - how that preexisting life came to be, no matter on how small a scale, is not discussed by Darwin's original theories. It is often misquoted as such by raving morons on both sides, however, which is where you may have picked up that misconception.

Now, given this, Evolution is very much testable and verifiable through controlled, empirical experimentation. It is not, as you are implying, an "unverifiable assumption".

[Masacree]

the exact same is true about evolution, an unverifiable assumption that everything just happened by chance

See, I don't think you understand evolution. First of all, your straw man of evolution is just that - a straw man. Evolution doesn't claim everything happened by chance. Evolution (or more specifically natural selection) is a mechanism that explains how organisms develop into more advanced forms. This has been scientifically observed¹ Individual organisms go through a complex reproduction process which occasionally (or always) leads to slight mutations in the next generation. Those individuals better suited to their environment tend to survive longer and have more children. Over time those individuals dominate the species, and become the new status quo.

Now, I guess I should sort of presume you're also simultaneously talking about macroevolution, which is the somewhat more complex theory of how life on earth specifically evolved (from a common ancestor) because that is how you anti-scientist advocates tend to move the goal posts. Now, the most personally persuasive piece of evidence I've seen for macro evolution is the similarity in fetus development between very different species. Take the example of a dolphin, which although is a sea animal and does not have legs, begins developing legs as a fetus. This implies that dolphins at one point were land animals, and eventually outgrew the need for legs.²

Now, macroevolution has a ridiculous amount of evidence supporting it, which I'm obviously not going to go into, but I figure I'd leave behind a very informational sight for your own perusal. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Of course, you're going to come back and say something to the effect of, "well god could have just put that in there to trick us."
But, first of all, is the Christian god really a malevolent god who would trick us? And if he is, would you really want to worship him? And anyways, doesn't the scientific explanation just make more sense anyways? (Occam's razor ftw)

1. Bacteria have been observed evolving antibiotic resistance. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC179004/?tool=pmcentrez
2. Sedmera, D., Misek, I., and Klima, M. (1997) "On the development of Cetacean extremities: I. Hind limb rudimentation in the Spotted dolphin Stenella attenuata." Eur J Morphol 35: 25-30. [PubMed]

[acker]

Did you know that if you look at the night sky long enough, with the most powerful telescope in the world, you won't see the teapot floating around The North Star?

Try it. It works.