[US] Fire up and the Blob

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[ImmanioEiR]

First off, while this post is triggered somewhat by a game I played last night, it's based mostly on my long-standing feeling towards blobs. As such, I wouldn't class it as a rage-post myself. If mods disagree, well, then I guess this topic will get locked pretty quickly.

I'll start off by admitting my stance on blobbing in general: I'm not fond of it. I feel it takes something away from the game if (note, if) it's possible to be highly successful with 4-5 squads being ordered around collectively in a big group even against a well-prepared and skilled opponent. I realize some people will disagree with me on this. Furthermore, maybe it can be argued that blobbing is ineffective as is, without any further tweaking. However, this post is focused on further discouraging blobbing as compared to the current situation.

Now, in my opinion, one of the main weapons against blobbing is suppression. (I think we can agree that it's possible to make a blob that's quite capable at both AT and AI.) In the EiR environment without retreat to base, having several squads moving together entails a risk of losing/having to retreat them all if they run into an HMG or other heavy suppression weapon. Which brings us, of course, to the gist of the matter: Fire up.

A lot of balance discussion has already taken place about fire up, and I certainly don't think it should be removed or nerfed individually. However, last night Silverstone mentioned an idea that I personally really liked - Imposing a group penalty to it. We're all familiar with how pioneers have (at least in vCoH) a group modifier that makes them take more damage when blobbed. The idea would be to give fire up a similar penalty.

To make an example: A single AB/ranger squad would get the normal 0 suppression. However, 2 squads together would be possible to suppress, but it would take a lot more than a single HMG. Moving up to 4 squads would result in being able to use it to escape if caught at long range by an HMG, say, but not to charge it. And finally, at 5 squads, fire up would essentially give no suppression resistance (though retaining the speed increase).

I do realize this will probably not be implemented. If nothing else, it does make mechanics more complex and fiddly, and less transparent. Coding it might also be a bitch, I guess, I don't know much about the code involved. Still, I figured the idea was worth mentioning, and I certainly would like to see it happen myself.

So, to sum up (TL;DR version):
1) I consider blobbing to be undesirable.
2) I consider suppression to be one of the main tools against blobbing.
3) I feel units with fire up are currently somewhat too effective in a blob because it counters (2).
4) I think a group penalty on fire up would remedy this, without going overboard or hurting these units while working outside of a blob of 3+ squads.

[Mysthalin]

There already is a modifier vs blobbing. Called incremental accuracy.

[ImmanioEiR]

I'm fully aware of that, but that doesn't affect suppression, and in my opinion it isn't sufficient to discourage blobbing of elite infantry.

[sheffer]

read this first before creating a new topic http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=16052.0

[Mysthalin]

I'm fully aware of that, but that doesn't affect suppression, and in my opinion it isn't sufficient to discourage blobbing of elite infantry.

An MG42 gaining 34 percent more (scales mutliplicatively) accuracy for each squad of troops going at it isn't sufficient? I always assumed it was.

I think you should just have lesser expectations of a 3 popcap 270 MP 40 MU unit.

[ImmanioEiR]

Yes, I've read the other topic. Nothing there similar to this suggestion, which is about limiting fire up in the context of blobs, not fire up in general.

And having encountered an AB/AB rifles blob being fired at by 3 HMGs from different directions, a volks squad (and possibly LMG grens as well, but not certain about those) and cleaning them up with minimal losses without even using nades... quite true, I don't consider it sufficient. Like I said, I'm quite open about my view here: No matter what vet or doctrine, I don't think blobbing 3 or more  squads together and ordering them around collectively should be viable against a halfway decent opponent. Hell, personally I'd be happy if it was impossible to give orders to groups of more than 3 units.

[Mysthalin]

AB/AB rifles happen to have something called one of the most retarded T4s ever concieved by man which makes them survive P4 shots(Easy Company for short). Please, don't base your proposals to nerf something that has minimal impact on the actual balance, when it's another thing causing the balance issue. As soon as Easy Coy gets kicked repeatedly in the balls about 20 times in a row, then shot in the face and burnt on a stake - AB blobs will suddenly not be powerful at all again.

[lionel23]

Yeah that sounds like an Easy Company AB blob, nasty stuff... don't know who thought of giving Airborne more health than Grens like that, I wish my rangers could survive tank shots!

[Mysthalin]

Yeah that sounds like an Easy Company AB blob, nasty stuff... don't know who thought of giving Airborne more health than Grens like that, I wish my rangers could survive tank shots!

You get three guesses, his name starts with g (rolls eyes)

[Killer344]

Their effective HP was always higher than gren's HP anyway.

[Tymathee]

U know...how about giving all infantry the Pio nerf, where the more infantry units are around, the more damage the take. its osmething relic put in to get rid of Pio blobbing, it could be used for rifles, rangers, airborne, PE etc.

[Mysthalin]

1. The pio-blob effect is literally utter shite.
2. You're already at a huge enough disadvantage if you're blobbing due to suppression, incremental accuracy, splash damage and miss-shots still hitting.
3. Once Easy Coy is gone the game will more or less so be fine.

[NightRain]

1. The pio-blob effect is literally utter shite.
2. You're already at a huge enough disadvantage if you're blobbing due to suppression, incremental accuracy, splash damage and miss-shots still hitting.
3. Once Easy Coy is gone the game will more or less so be fine.

Don't forget ASS

[Mysthalin]

ASS warfare rapes your face regardless if it's being blobbed or not.

[MorkaandBorka]

ASS warfare rapes your face regardless if it's being blobbed or not.

Well put Myst, and I guess that concludes the argument?

[arsonist123]

My question to imm is
are you tryin to implement a suggestion that force other players to only be limited in strategies??

sometimes.... noobs like me dont know how to play...

nuff said.

[NightRain]

My question to imm is
are you tryin to implement a suggestion that force other players to only be limited in strategies??

sometimes.... noobs like me dont know how to play...

nuff said.

If blobbing is the only strategy someone knows they shouldn't play EIRR imo