Level 1 again

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[3rdCondor]

Can we start at lvl 9 with 1000 pps?

[Groundfire]

Can we start at lvl 9 with 1000 pps?

If you do that, the world ends.

[tank130]

Here's the way I see it. The more players we have, the bigger the community becomes and in turn, the more games available.
Often I have come on to play, but it takes half hour to 45 minutes to get a game. I just leave and go do something else. A newer player will probably leave and just not come back. Bottom line is, the more players around, the more fun the game becomes.

I think my level of play is indicative of the average guy. Every few days I can get on and play a few games. If there are lots of players, I can get in 3-4 games in that day, If it is like usual, there is very few players on and I get in one game.
Players who spam games like their lives depend on it, rank up their companies in no time. These same players tend to argue they should be rewarded for their dedication to the Mod. These players tend to also be the ones who think the grind is fine, but also get bored of their companies quickly.

If we continue to lean the Mod in favor of the members who play 4-5 games a day, we will continue to have the little community we have now. The same people bitching at each other, the same stale ideas and ultimately, a dead mod as these people we probably grow up and move on.
However, if we only cater the mod to newbies, no body will stick around as it will eventually get boring.

MY POINT:
IMO we need to lessen the gap between new players and the "spam all fucking day" players. Correction, not just new players, but players that have a life outside this mod and can't rank up a company in a week.

SOLUTIONs:
Make doctrines quicker to obtain and make their abilities weaker. A rank 8 player should not be able to wtfpwn a rank 2 player of equal ability. I suggest 30 games to fully rank a company.

The difference between a new player and a veteran player should be the veterancy. I am not a stats guy at all, so I don't know the correct percentages to use for the veterancy, but it should be used to separate the new from the old. But this separation needs to be limited as to not create a massive difference between new and old. Perhaps each level of vet adds a small percentage of defensive or offensive ability.
This system would encourage micro and troop preservation. It may also cause some vet hunting, but lets face it; in war you need to take out the biggest threat first.

So to sum this up. We need to decrease the gap between new and old players. This will in turn increase the player / community base. Some may get bored, but I think those are the players who just spam this game all day.....

Another thought. Get rid of ME and Reinforcements and make Attack / Defend random. This would encourage balanced builds and get rid of most of the gimmick companies. Most of the Gimmick companies really suck as defend. ( most, not all ) If you have no idea if you are attacking or defending, you need to build a company that can adjust as needed. It would also encourage strategy over gimmicks. Your wins would be a result of good game play, not what you exploited or spammed. Your name on the leader board, or your veteran units would be a sign of your strategic skills rather than " hey I made a gimmick company that rapes everybody, I am so great!!!"

Unless of course, making spam companies is more important to you than the actual skills required to use real strategies......

[Mysthalin]

I like the ammount of passive agressive you put up against the better players tank, I really do. L2P not to get raped by what you refer to as "gimmicks", perhaps?

[Groundfire]

Another thought. Get rid of ME and Reinforcements and make Attack / Defend random. This would encourage balanced builds and get rid of most of the gimmick companies. Most of the Gimmick companies really suck as defend. ( most, not all ) If you have no idea if you are attacking or defending, you need to build a company that can adjust as needed. It would also encourage strategy over gimmicks. Your wins would be a result of good game play, not what you exploited or spammed. Your name on the leader board, or your veteran units would be a sign of your strategic skills rather than " hey I made a gimmick company that rapes everybody, I am so great!!!"

I agree with everything but this. Not that it shouldnt happen but your reasoning behind it.

Good players will beat non good players regardless of the spam or tactics. They spam because they know they can and its to keep the game interesting, experimenting with builds. They shape up when they have to play against someone who can punish them for their laziness.

ME and R+ are not the root cause of the degradation of tactics and gameplay, it's the player skill disparity we have from having such a small playerbase; only fixable when we increase the size of the community.

You can do as many gimmicky and bullshit spam builds on atk/def as you can in ME and R+, the only difference is that in R+ you succeed or fail by your own hand and ME mitigates or elevates the effectiveness of spam builds cause you have friends to absorb some damage.

All atk/def all the time just leads to 12 mine/12 goliath pio starts, bunker spam with inadequate tools needed to break such a defense in a timely manner.

You can be just as gimmicky. Game modes are not the Dichotomy you make it out to be. People dont stop spamming when it's atk/def.

[AmPM]

Tank, that is the exact reason I think the best way to encourage people to play is to let them fully create their "character" (company doctrines and advantages) from the get go, then have them increase their company through Vet and the old RB system.

The old RB system was much more fun, it had smaller bonuses sure, but you could fully customize your company and it never stopped improving even if it did take 20+ games for 1% RB increase eventually.

[tank130]

I like the ammount of passive agressive you put up against the better players tank, I really do. L2P not to get raped by what you refer to as "gimmicks", perhaps?

Well, it comes as no surprise that you would be the one to make this post Mysthalin.
There was nothing passive aggressive about my post. It was clear, concise and to the point. This mod should not be based on people who spend most of their day spamming games. You are one of those people and that is your choice. I am not condemning your choice in life. But this Mod should be created to benefit the majority, not the minority: if it wants to grow.

Better players win due to their skills. Some players win because of gimmicks. In my opinion, this does not make a good player, just a person who is good at gimmicks.

Mysthalin; I did not create this post to start a personal crusade against you. You have chosen to make this a personal attack by stating "L2P". This is a very passive aggressive remark. It is very insulting and said only to attack.
Let me state this very clearly and non passive. If you truly care about the overall well being of the mod, then don't attack people trying to make suggestions. You are a very egotistical and condescending individual. If you do not agree with a person, you take every opportunity to belittle them. This aproach is not productive.

I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of the game in regards to stats, RGD's, and what ever inside workings that make this mod work. I do not respect your delivery of your opinions in most cases, or how you come across as more superior than other members.

[Mysthalin]

There was nothing passive aggressive about my post. It was clear, concise and to the point.

Two unrelated things. Yes, your post was clear and concise - but that doesn't make it exclusive of all the passive aggressive. If you do not think you were being passive agressive, let me explain why you seemed like you were :

you more or less so demean and belittle anyone who plays this game more than just casually by calling them out on having no life(despite your latter attempt to downplay this by saying that you don't condemn it).

First of all - you keep restating gimmicks as a recurring trend of your post. Gimmick companies are such companies that work under very specific circumstances(a certain game-mode, map and perhaps even enemy company build). Do not mix this up with a spammy or themed company build - most of the good players engaging in those kinds of companies can ensure their builds are efficient regardless of map, game-mode and enemy builds - which merely makes their companies themed.

Secondly, get off your high horse of looking down upon spammy builds as something that players use to cover a lack of skill. Say what you will - but having a good and efficient company build IS part of a player's skill. If a player knows which units he's best with - what is the reasoning behind him NOT using these units? Because you don't like him using massed riflemen, or massed volksgrenadiers? Well tough luck : company diversity and the ability to make whatever company you like is a large part of the mod.

Continuing on the moral high horse aspect of your outlook on spammy builds - please don't go about with the usual "well my company is balanced". What a "balanced" company generally means is that it's nothing more than uninspired support spam - 3 MGs, 2 mortars, 4 AT guns and some units to recrew. Indeed, it's nothing more than just a slow-crawl theme-build. Stop trying to force this down people's throats as the only "honorable" way of fighting.


Groundfire made a very good point about atk/def gamemodes, so I'll just leave a +1 for him.

As for your implication of "we should base the mod for casual players because it's somehow better", I'm sure I can go with this comparison with real life. If you've got a choise between owning a shop that serves 500 people, but each of them spends on average 2 dollars a day at the shop, or owning a shop that serves 50 people, but each of them spends 20 dollars a day at the shop - I'm sure you'd go for the smaller yet higher-spending shop for obvious reasons (less revenue on rent due to the smaller size of the shop, less revenue on labour since less cashiers required etc.)

/End Point.

[tank130]

Tank, that is the exact reason I think the best way to encourage people to play is to let them fully create their "character" (company doctrines and advantages) from the get go, then have them increase their company through Vet and the old RB system.

The old RB system was much more fun, it had smaller bonuses sure, but you could fully customize your company and it never stopped improving even if it did take 20+ games for 1% RB increase eventually.

I think we are basically on the same page here. Doctrines to specialize your type of company, Vet as it (you) become more skilled on the battlefield.
I am not sure of the number of games needed or days etc, but good players should be rewarded for good play, not just how many games they play.

For example: a new guy comes to the mod. It takes him 8 or 9 games to get the hang of it, but he is great at micro and has excellent strategies. He should be able to go toe to toe with any player that has been here a long time. As it is now, he will have a hard time countering a player like Mysthalin fairly because Mysthalin will have all the unlocks and advantages. He may still beat him, but he will be at a disadvantage based on games played, not skill.
 In my opinion, if Mysthalin is at an advantage due to vet, due to skill, then that is fair. It is equal to, more experienced, better units. This motivates the new player to play better and vet his units. Vetting the units is done with skill, not the amount of time you have available to play.

I have chosen to use Mysthalin as an example in this post. My reasons are simple. He has chosen to single me out in his post. He is also a very good example of someone who is rewarded for his ability to play this game a crazy amount of time. I am a person who is not able to play this game as often as I would like. The balance is somewhere between the two.

[Smokaz]

EIRR needs to put in it's main selling points, which is the persistent campaign and the cycle of Wars. If you have the war progressing to a point where it ends followed by a reset, on say a two monthly basis on average, the problems of the grind goes away. Lets say PP amounts were halved from the current levels (the requirements) and the war ended in 2 months or when one side had all territories. That would be perfect.

This type of discussion while nice isn't that helpful - it's EIRRMOD who needs to put in the warmap and the campaign etc etc blah blah. He needs to put in this stuff!

Personally, I see no reason for why companies should start at level 1. If they from now on started at level 5 that would be fine with me. Down with the grind

[shockcoil]

On the attack/defend point. I still maintain that they are way more fun than ME and possibly R mode BUT you must have a set system of it. By this I mean you always know when you're attacking or defending and it takes a certain winning condition to turn the sides over. And no this will not lead to massive pio/bunker spam (although some people certainly will *cough* Smokaz). Just for the record iirc attacking was the preferred mode in veir when we had this system.

[tank130]

As for your implication of "we should base the mod for casual players because it's somehow better", I'm sure I can go with this comparison with real life. If you've got a choise between owning a shop that serves 500 people, but each of them spends on average 2 dollars a day at the shop, or owning a shop that serves 50 people, but each of them spends 20 dollars a day at the shop - I'm sure you'd go for the smaller yet higher-spending shop for obvious reasons (less revenue on rent due to the smaller size of the shop, less revenue on labour since less cashiers required etc.)

/End Point.

It is regrettable that you have turned this into a debate between you and I. I will not waste anymore time debating life with you. I am not speaking from a high horse, you just really are not that important to me.

However, if you think for one second you could actually teach me something about business and economics, you best think again. I probably made more money today than you have made this year. My business has tripled it's profits in the last two years during one the most repressed markets I have experienced in my life time (41 years). My profits are a direct reflection in the increase of my customer base. Catering a business to suit a small number clients and alienating any new clients will be the quickest way to failure.

Your age and lack of knowledge in the business world is very apparent in your words. This mod is not a business, but if it wants to succeed and grow, it must be run like one.

Mysthalin, I strongly suggest you not bring a knife to a gun fight with me  

[skaffa]

I love how tank130 tells Myshtalin how it is, rofl.

[Mysthalin]

I don't see why you assume that if the mod is balanced towards the better-playing community members(AKA : it promotes consistent play) it somehow alienates everybody else and instantly curbs any and all growth(which, judging by the mods history : simply isn't true).

Looking at the business world? Most businesses nowadays have clubcards, memberships and henceforth that promote CONSISTENT use of the businesses services. Or are you implying that Tesco is going to invalidate every single clubcard out there because it's unfair towards new consumers?

Give me a break - just because your business is doing good at the moment doesn't mean that you are most definitely the best businessman ever to have graced the world with his presence and that your conceptions may never be wrong.

[tank130]

sigh....

you have so much to learn my friend.

[Mysthalin]

I may well do - that I do not dispute.

But please, don't make laughable statements such as the mod shouldn't aim to retain it's current playerbase as well as increasing it. Going for a purely casual playerbase may well result in a dead mod entirely due to the fact it's purely casual. It only plays every once in a while - and what are the odds the "once in a whiles" coincide for a big enough number of people? Pretty low, I'd think.

[Unkn0wn]

IMO we need to lessen the gap between new players and the "spam all fucking day" players. Correction, not just new players, but players that have a life outside this mod and can't rank up a company in a week.

Yes, this is true and it's something we are determined to do.

There is not a single PVP MMO in the world in which new players will just be tossed to the lions the moment they enter the game arena. Having them face off against higher levelled players that can win games simply because they posses better gear and magic abilities.

And since EIR has to pull from a relatively low-populated player pool, seperating low levels from high levels like a lot of MMO's do is not an option. Leaving us with only one proper solution, closing the gap.


Now the tricky part is closing the gap significantly without alienating the hardcore gamers who can mash out several games a day. There still needs to be some sort of grind, some sort of additional reward mechanism. These can even be things that do not necessarily give the player an edge in combat. (Think ranks, medals, warmap contributions)

This is not about making a choice between casual or hardcore players, that's far too much of a simplistic representation of reality. The larger our initial (casual) playerbase, the bigger our pool of 'potential' hardcore players becomes.

The new 'grindless' system we have worked out will in combination with a first basic launcher integrated warmap do just that imo.

[Mysthalin]

I think the old RB system worked very well at that - Unknown. Very miniscule buffs to your pool thar rewarded consistency in playing your chosen doctrine - but still something to work for even after you're "maxed out".

I mean, I doubt anyone would be at all that much of an advantage if they get a point worth 50 MP/20 mun/10 FU (not all together, one of the three) each time they play 4 games (so 25 such advantages after 100 games) - but it would still be something to keep working for.

[Unkn0wn]

I basically just confirmed tank's opinion, but as a developer FYI.

And yes, the old RB system should probably be reconsidered when we have the other mechanisms in place.

[shockcoil]

Yeah old rb system was great. Like when saint managed to get like a million rbs and spam 9 OBM shermans? Good times good times