The new grindless system - Factional progression (FP)

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[TheWindCriesMary]

 It is also important to point out that, as there is a level cap, the idea of "never being able to reach the strength of the game spammers" is also inherently false.

 Lady logic is being abused and molested today.

 -Wind

[Unkn0wn]

Time to lower the max wordcount per post. 

[Illegal_Carrot]

I remember what I said well enough to know what you're talking about.

But not every single forum member does, and not everyone is interested in reading back and forth between posts to see which point I'm addressing each time.

is in itself a bit of a joke and have mixed their points with a bit of humour.

That's the best way to get your point taken seriously: to turn your position into a joke. No. It's the squeaky wheel that gets that get's the oil, especially in situations like this where it seems like the mods/devs are ignoring the community's pleas. It was only because I made impassioned effort-posts that I was able to garner so much attention (and support) in my Airborne, Armor Rework and Fix the Mod threads. I'm not SUPER DUPER ANGRY about anything, but it's nice to know you care. =)

stupid for people who don't play a lot to expect reward points when people who did play a lot and contributed far more to the campaign weren't getting them

Except for the fact that at the time almost everyone supported my idea to give one Reward Point to a higher-up player, one to a dedicated middle-of-the-road player and one to an up-and-coming newbie each turn. Even after shockcoil stated that everyone would get RPs, not just the top-tier players, you continued to screech about how that was COMMUNISM and unfair and stuff. It got to the point where other people like Tank or Salan were also telling you to fuck off.

The comparitive levels of companies are NOT a zero-sum thing.

I didn't mean zero-sum in a literal XP/level way, I meant it in an ability-to-win way, which I even explained in my earlier post. As Player 1 goes up in levels/unlocks, he is more and more able to stomp Player 2, even if Player 2 isn't actually losing anything. As Player 1 get more likely to win, Player 2 gets less likely to win. Zero sum.

Reaching rank 9 is a factor of games played, nothing else.

Yes, but not every player has the ability to player as many games as every other player. As I said before, the logic you're using is that playing video games is just as important as working or taking care of family. Which is just wrong on every level.

It is also important to point out that, as there is a level cap, the idea of "never being able to reach the strength of the game spammers" is also inherently false.

If it takes 50 levels to get to LVL9, but you only have time to play one game a day, it'll take you almost two months to reach LVL9. No way a player is going to catch up to the pros like that.

When that moment came, however, you conveniently had to go to dinner. I mentioned that I would be happily waiting for you on your return. Needless to say you did not come back, and never sought to recontact me.

Yeah, I mean who eats dinner at 7PM?? Surely I must have been running away from an argument with Big Man Wind.
I went down to the AFK channel and came back about a half-hour later, like I said I would, and you never got back to me. I'm not going to drop whatever it is I'm doing to get into a Vent battle with you that you wanted to have in the first place.

After all, it's far easier to take guerrilla pot shots in unrelated threads

I'm not doing this to attack you, mate. I'm doing this on the off chance you'll finally listen and shut up with your stupid (gimmicky) TANK IS A COMMUNIST bullshit and the like. It ain't just me, the entire community is getting piss off at you. Want to argue on Vent with someone who's tired of you? Don't just look to me, try Tank, Lionel, Nevyen or AmPm.
Seriously, just stop.

Now take this out of my thread.

Alright. If he wants to have at me in Vent or something, we'll take it there.

[tank130]

Wind,
You write very well and use big words. I applauded your literary skills.

You are a pompous ass who takes pleasure in demeaning people. Grow up!! Nothing you write carries any merit because it is coming from a condescending, arrogant prick. If you want us to take you seriously, get off your high horse and post with out the lectures or "in character" remarks.

As a large donator to this Mod, I deserve nothing more than any other person here. I do not expect anything other than the mod working as intended. The only thing I asked for was a new avatar, and I got it. Not exactly what I had in mind, but it makes me laugh.

Here's what my knowledge of real life business ( not that shit they teach you in a class room ) has taught me. With out new customers, a business will not grow and will eventually fail. It is very important to take care of your current customers, but no matter how well you treat them, they will move on for different reasons.

EiRR is not a business, but we are all able to see the similarities. With out new blood, this mod will fail. People like Wind and Mysthalin and myself of course, will find other things in life that are more important and our time here will slowly decrease to a point of non existence. With out that new blood, EiRR will be nothing but a memory.

Wind & AmPm,
You both are very vocal about rewards for better players and that the mod is nothing with out it. You also feel a penalty should be in place for loosing. And perhaps if we do not keep the reward system, you will just leave this boring mod.
It would suck to loose AmPm, cuz I actually kinda like him. Loosing Wind would probably motivate me to donate even more....but I digress.

We may loose a couple of people with my proposed change, but we will gain ten times that many in new players. This mod has become a play ground for a very small group of elite players. I do not feel that is good for the future of the mod.

Perhaps it's time we tried something different. What we have now is not working. It works for the game spammers, but not the majority of the community.

[tank130]

Tank is probably the nicest person in EIRR, and anyone flaming him just deservers to be flamed and then ignored

No, No, No, just no. Don't put me on a pedestal, I will just do something stupid and embarrass you....lol

Just for the record. Killer had to give me an official warning a couple years back for being an asshole. The good news is, we can all change our asshole behavior eventually.

[EIRRMod]

It's not bitching, it just requires alternate rewards received for skill and winning rather than for play time spent.

I'm not advocating a system to reward number of games played, in fact its the opposite. I think reward should be based on playing well.

Should new players be encouraged to play? Yes, but that would be through a separate reward system and based upon the total number of games on their accounts. Not just the one account, but all accounts. To prevent players from making newb advantage using grief companies.

Excellent quote, and it reflects how Im approaching this system (and the underlying changes to the OTHER systems)

[EIRRMod]

1. Input should be proportionate to output

In essence, I agree - the key factors here are skill-level and company strength disparity (thus input of an easy game == output of smaller reward)

2. A sense of achievement and/or the possibility of strategic advantage is a strong form of motivation

Again, I agree - the shift however will be moved from doctrinal / advantage progression into other areas.
The current grind will be replaced with the grindless system which represents the wars progress - not your company.

3. People (ideally) can't have their cake, and eat it too

Ive always hated this quote... why have a fucking cake if you cant eat it?  *mumble*

What I am saying, however, is that it is wrong for someone to say "I don't want to play more than a few games a week, but it's not fair if people who play more get advantages over me!". That, logically, doesn't make sense.

<snip>

 Could we instead play tons of games of EiR (and only work 1 or 2 hours a week) and then complain to our bosses that other people who are working 40 hours a week are getting more money? Of course not!

These two points Id like to address in more depth.

More games WILL give you many more advantages - just not through having a higher leveled company anymore.
Each battle will be giving a return (in the form of advantages - you'll see when the warmap comes out) that can be used in future games.
These advantages may be a special unit, extra resources for a small time, extra pool, offmaps everything - THAT opens up more tactical advantages to players who play MORE - but in a quantifiable way that can be balanced with something other than 'newbie rewards'.

This is the key element that noone (other than me) really knows much about, and its crucial to trust me on this
I will deliver the goods! Or I expect puddin' and tank130 to give out my address so that I may be lynch mobbed =p

Hope this helps

[Smokaz]

Kamerat Lenin, I mean EIRRMOD, if you want to quell the complaints of the guys who imagine themselves still playing tons of games - and imagining mass games giving none or reduced gains.. why dont you just make it so that if you are maxed and still play a lot of games, you get a increased chance of gaining reward points or whatever monopoly money you play to use to buy reward units like the Sturmtiger, the Tigersturm or Robot Hitler. That would be incentive enough.

Say 10 games to get a single availability of a sturmtiger or similar reward unit for every 10 games played "past" max level of doctrine unlocks. That would be enough. With the communism leveling of all accounts, people should be prepared for them by the time everyone is level 9. And incentive to play past level 9 is given for every 10 games past it, while also people having the motivation of grinding vet for their reward unit (or losing it) between every 10 games past max level.

Perfect!

"These advantages may be a special unit, extra resources for a small time, extra pool, offmaps everything - THAT opens up more tactical advantages to players who play MORE - but in a quantifiable way that can be balanced with something other than 'newbie rewards'."

Actually you kind of wrote that. But I think people just need to have something specific to relate to. YOU GET ROBOT HITLER EVERY 10 GAMES PAST MAX LEVEL!

[Illegal_Carrot]

More games WILL give you many more advantages - just not through having a higher leveled company anymore.
Each battle will be giving a return (in the form of advantages - you'll see when the warmap comes out) that can be used in future games.
These advantages may be a special unit, extra resources for a small time, extra pool, offmaps everything - THAT opens up more tactical advantages to players who play MORE - but in a quantifiable way that can be balanced with something other than 'newbie rewards'.

This is the main problem I have with this: company progression/advantages/level is the biggest thing I (and a majority of players) care about. Let's dig up the list of other incentives Unkn0wn posted earlier:

- Reward units
- Veterancy (3 or 5 levels)
- Warmap rank and control
- 'Warmap cards' (Extra off-maps, units, pool values, whatever)
- Possibly resource bonuses. (See old RB system)

-Reward units will be a nice thing to play around with, but lack any sort of permanent attachment or improvement and will get boring quickly. They also lack widespread incentive, as if every player gets Reward units, it'll get old even quicker.
-Veterancy is something that a large majority of the community just doesn't care much about. Vet is hard to get, harder to keep, and most players are 100% willing to lose it. Adding more levels of Vet will mitigate this slightly, but will also only further the gap between skilled players and slightly less competent ones.
-Warmap rank/control is nice, but has no direct effect on individuals, so most players (especially newer ones) will not concentrate on it, or consider it much of an advantage.
-Cards actually sound pretty cool, but I really have no idea. I guess I'll just have to 'trust you on this.'
-Resource bonuses are something I'd really like to avoid, at least in the most literal sense. If you want to allow extra/hero units through cards, that's one thing, but to give someone (especially a very skilled player) extra resources + extra pool is a big no no to me.

[Artekas]

The hardest thing I have understanding about the arguments for increased/same grind is - why is it such a big deal to you guys? The mod offers awesome gameplay - shouldn't that be enough to just enjoy the game?

The grind is a non-factor in this at all to me, but that's obviously just me. I have all of the fun I need to with a lv5 company, if I level up I barely even notice. I couldn't care less whether the grind was completely removed or increased by an order of magnitude, so I'm not going to take sides in this argument, but I am very interested in what makes a big grind so important to some of you.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Because individual company progression has always been the biggest draw and most defining feature of EiR over any other game.
You can even tell with the recent inactivity. People know there's going to be a wipe soon, that their hard work is going to go away for good, so they've stopped playing.
They (myself included) don't play for the love of CoH, they play for a sense of advancement and persistence.
If people want to play CoH, they'll play vCoH, CoH:O, or one of the more mainstream mods. They come here specifically for the individual grind.

If you want to make that grind easier, more enjoyable and/or more newbie-friendly, that's all well and good (and I'd like nothing more than for this to happen). But to take this away really is going to hurt things more than help.

[Artekas]

But EiRR has completely different gameplay than any of the alternatives you mentioned, and that's why I play it. I don't like the sound of COH:O at all, I can't stand playing vCoH, and most of the other mods I've seen are just realism mods, which I don't like because it's still halfway between realism and gameplay-ism. Also, while more fun the vCoH, it's not very easy to get a multiplayer game going.

I find myself doubting that the majority of people come here for the grind rather than the unique gameplay. Before I came here, I played three matches of OMG (and then got scared away by the terrible community). In OMG there was absolutely no grind that I could see, other than veterancy - yet it still had similar activity to EiRR. EiRR is somewhat more active, but that can be explained by the fact that OMG's community is very anti-newb (which makes the playerbase smaller for obvious reasons) and that OMG doesn't have doctrines yet.

[Katusha]

biggest reason i came here was because i get to have MY company, its a sense of attachment that develops

second biggest reason, the gameplay lets you focus more on tactics, not economy management

lastly, the ability to get vetted units sounded fun, but when i came in.. i saw pretty much everyone had them.. so it wasn't that special anymore

[Groundfire]

IC, go back and read unknownz and EIRRmod's posts very carefully.

Were going from individual company progression to warmap career progression.

People were not playing because development stalled. They didnt play not because there "hard work" was going to get wiped (p.s. you still got 2 months), it's just that the mod doesnt currently have renewable content.

since the start of the mod, we have been promised a renewable adventure but have been playing with an impression of what the real thing would be. A place holder.

Right now, company progression is virtually gone after 40 games and most players who are still into it just go grind up a new company anyways. I would wager that resets do more for mod activity than stagnant late/run-on-with-no-end wars. Yeah, there are those few that get pissed about the resets, but they are also usually the same that got bored with their company at lvl9 and are too busy/tired to grind a new one.

@Artekas- Glad you arnt finding a problem with the grind. Your new still, lots of stuff to try. For the people that have been here for 2 years or so, it gets aggitating losing all your progress.

Bottom line:
The grind is being shifted, there's alot of rumors floating around and a lot of misconceptions about what's coming for us at Christmas. Have some faith that the devs know what their doing with the warmap and the doctrinal refinement because whether you've realized it or not, you've been playing the shadow of the mod, not the actual thing, it's about time we rapped this shit up and made it a complete product.

[Spartan_Marine88]

lastly, the ability to get vetted units sounded fun, but when i came in.. i saw pretty much everyone had them.. so it wasn't that special anymore

Kill someones vet 3's, then you will find out just how special they were to them

And to Artek, no one likes the 'grind' persay. But what new people joining us now, and devs who haven't played in a long time, or give them selves level 9 companies (which i don't mind tbh especially if your that busy between life and coding). The forget the feeling you have after playing those 60+ games (30-60 hours of gameplay - thats not that bad) Hitting level 9 getting that stuff you worked so hard for.


But hey, i guess we just get tired, of certain people telling us that its all going to be great and this new method is so awesome. Don't worry that its sounds so different, trust us we don't even play our own mod anymore.

[Groundfire]

But hey, i guess we just get tired, of certain people telling us that its all going to be great and this new method is so awesome. Don't worry that its sounds so different, trust us we don't even play our own mod anymore.

This sir, only applies to the doctrines, unit balance and nothing else.

Dont need to play CoH to create a "board game" around it. The mod simply constructs a larger context for CoH to exist in. EIRRmod doesnt need to play CoH regularly to make a game that is external to the core game.

So, stuff like launcher systems, company progression, the warmap, etc. all theoretical concepts that exist outside of CoH. They were only stepping stones to begin with to something greater.

[brn4meplz]

What Groundfire says is true. However, anything that has direct impact on the gameplay of the mod is handled by people who play it regularly.

I'm not even going to touch on the subject of level 9 companies. The level of dedication shown by a strictly volunteer, non profit group of people and the resources required in the execution of their duties therein should be self evident.

Anything involving the launcher and Pricing or pool is carefully monitored. Anything related to discovered bugs is handled ASAP and in most situations the turnaround is on average 1-2 weeks. All in all the most efficient system that a strictly volunteer group can accomplish.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Yeah, that's another issue that needs to be addressed: the dev's lack of actual participation in the mod.

I haven't seen BoB actually play a game in months, and yet he's totally redesigning all the doctrines himself with little-to-no input from anyone else.

I haven't seen Lucifer play in months, either, and yet he still maintains his position of lead dev, while designing the warmap to whatever specifications he sees fit, and totally trashing the current progression system in favor of one he's completely created himself, with no input from the community.

I haven't seen a large majority of the dev team play at all within the last few weeks, and yet somehow their input gets infinitely more attention than the rest of the community's.

The community as a whole has put forth so many great ideas, suggestions, commentary and input and it all continues to be ignored in favor of whatever the hell the devs want.

It's clear that no one wants the doctrine rework, and no one likes the proposed reworks that Bob has put forward; but they're going in and there's nothing we can do about it because Bob said so!

It's clear that this radically different progression system EiRRMod put forward is disliked by a large portion of the community, for many many good and legitimate reasons. But all our input gets ignored because we "just have to trust" him on this one.

It's clear that there are more important issues to be addressed, like the fact that the community does not want to be stuck with game-breaking, rage-inducing, experience-ruining abilities/units (that could be fixed in mere minutes) in the hopes that these issued may get addressed somewhere several months down the line [this issue is not only scaring away newer players, but losing us previously dedicated ones]; or the fact that the mod is bleeding players and will soon be dead due to shitty gameplay and poor development.

It's clear that the community has voiced its opinions time and time again, but that it continues to be ignored by the dev team. It's to the point where it seems like the devs simply don't give a shit about the community at all.

Now I understand that everyone has shit to do outside of the mod, everyone has their opinions of what works best, everyone has their own slight biases on some things, and that this is, for the most part, a volunteer effort. But all that means is that the development of the mod should go slowly, not poorly.

I've been in and have been following CoH:O since its very beginnings, and Relic is both more responsive and more more reasonable in their interactions with their community. That's right: in a community 100x the size of this one, and when presenting my ideas to a company known to constantly break their own game and fuck over their own audience, my opinion actually means more there than it does here.
It's really pissing us off, has been for a long time, and the community isn't going to just accept it for much longer. Seriously, fix this shit.

[salan]

The only thing I personally will comment on from Illegals post is that I doubt very much that EIRRMOD is creating a system only on his own ideas.  He maintains the position of lead dev because he OWNS the mod.  He is the only Launcher programmer we have, it is also his intellectual property.

[Illegal_Carrot]

The only thing I personally will comment on from Illegals post is that I doubt very much that EIRRMOD is creating a system only on his own ideas.  He maintains the position of lead dev because he OWNS the mod.  He is the only Launcher programmer we have, it is also his intellectual property.

That's certainly all true, though the point I'm getting at is that the community feels left out to such a great degree that many have simply given up. And the idea that we should "just trust" him being the only real support for this system, accompanied by the idea that "EIRRmod doesnt need to play regularly" to create a warmap designed solely around gameplay are both very unrealistic and disenheartening ones.

I'm also not saying that EiRRMod needs to lose his position of lead dev (I have a feeling that's what some people will think I meant), but I'm saying that he (and the rest of the dev team) need to be playing a lot more, as well as interacting with the community more, in order to create a product that the community will actually want. The only real interaction anyone seems to have had with the devs recently is through the doctrine discussions, which most people were unable to attend, and many more felt to be a joke.