The new grindless system - Factional progression (FP)

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[TheWindCriesMary]

When ever I reference the community in anything I say, it's because some portion of the community does agree with me on that.

 Yeah, see how you just used the word "some" when talking about who agrees with you? That is light years better than saying "virtually the entire community" every 3 seconds. As Ricky Gervais said, "we'd all love to write our own reviews."

 When you say "the entire community" it is a) a gross misrepresentation, and b) patently untrue, and c) disingenuous. This mod has hundreds of players who play atleast once a week. You just can't get away with proclaiming yourself their mouthpiece because you made a thread that ended up being 4 pages long that had less than 9 people explicitly say they agree with you in it. You believe in your opinion, and you have a small handful of active players who agree with your opinion.  But don't delude yourself into thinking that makes you the messiah of the masses in the supreme court case of EiR community v. EiRMod.


 Keep using "some people agree with me" and "a part of the community thinks this" and you will be a lot better off. As for the rest of us, you don't speak for us. No one does.

 We have our own opinions and some of us think the dev team is doing a damn good job of being in touch with the community. I had concerns myself and EiRmod jumped right on answering them with sincerity. The funny part? He didn't even have to! He could sit in an ivory tower all day like Stalin himself while we raved and ranted till we passed out if he wanted to. But he doesn't! He actually entertains questions and answers them earnestly. I call that a damn fine, classy ass bastard at work.

 -Wind

[brn4meplz]

How can someone who doesn't play the game, doesn't know the community's position on anything, doesn't know how things play out in an actual game scenario and doesn't and doesn't know the metagame, design a system around all these components? Sure it may be balanced later down the line, and it may work to an extent, but would it not be exponentially more well-designed and enjoyable to play if it were designed by someone who knows the community and plays the game with some frequency?

A retired professional sports player does not lose all credibility after not having played for a time. A developer doesn't either.

Not knowing the game trends is a benefit. Rest assured he reads the forums and such but not knowing the current trends allows you to view everything on the table.

If the community opinion is that Churchill's are imbalanced your less likely to propose a buff to them. Not having this knowledge removes reservations about certain buffs.

[brn4meplz]

Game trends alter the perceived performance of a unit. I say percevied because the unit may be perfectly fine. However through mass use players will perceive something to be imbalanced that isn't necessarily. Or may even be a pricing issue and not a stats issue.

If your polluted by personal perceptions of in game trends you either consciously or subconsciously decide against doctrine choices that will benefit said unit.

You still need to understand the game mechanics and play though. That however is not in question.

[Mysthalin]

Or may even be a pricing issue and not a stats issue.

Still an issue that would need to be solved, however.

I disagree severely with you, brn : being apart from the game is far from beneficial in that sence. It may be beneficial in that you're less likely to make a rash decision, but that is off-set in that you're also less likely to make a needed decision in terms of balance.

In all honesty - fluctuations in the meta-game need to be taken into account before any kind of balance change is made, naturally. But saying that not playing at all is the best way of filtering out the fluctuations tampering with your outlook is just wrong.

That being said - bob has been mostly quite acceptive of suggestions and observations from members of the playing community, at least lately.

[Illegal_Carrot]

I think the idea is that he looks at a unit's performance on-paper only, without regard to how it performs in-game, or getting second-hand accounts from any other player.
I can see why you'd want to avoid bias, but TBH it's a pretty bad way of going about that.
Even if everything ends up being balanced and fair, it still won't be very fun or as enjoyable to use in a real-game scenario.

[Mysthalin]

Armada, you're underestimating the power of theory. In the case of IA - the maths are in full agreement of what's happening on the field of battle.

[brn4meplz]

I considering them easily spammable but thats because they only consume 4 population instead of the traditional 5. Allows additional units on field.


I can come up with a ton of things throughout EiRR's history that appeared fine and wasn't broken until mass used, or until something was discovered about it.

Heck Illegal, you drafted a doctrine of your own as a presentation and it had several points that would have been imbalanced. But on paper they seem fine.

There is a time cost in designing, implementing and patching something. From what your typing you seem to be forgetting that people are spending their time doing this as a side project. EiRR doesn't have some QA department waiting for a new build. The Community is the QA. Something makes sense as an ability, you design it like similar abilities. Then you restructure it around issues that arise

[brn4meplz]

I'll also highlight the issue of 'Developer burnout' as it's primary cause is community aggression.

Everytime just before a dev/RGD coder leaves EiR they start making imbalanced abilities. Subconsciously I'm sure but it literally is something that happens every time. Scyn, Salan, Gamesguy are the more recent example that you'll know of. Panzerjaeger was before that and my memory gets hazy before him but old EiR was plagued with retarded op shit.

When your attitude comes across as "You're not volunteering hard enough!" whats the incentive to continue developing things? almost half the doctrines are Gamesguy works. The Problem doctrines and abilities are all Gamesguy works. He did a good job doing what he did but like everyone before him things got OP just before he left. Hence the rework.

[EIRRMod]

"You're not volunteering hard enough!"

Snipped the rest (albeit very correct) - but Im damn well putting this in my sig!

[Illegal_Carrot]

How do you come to the conclusion panzergrens are one of the most spammable infantry in the game?

Only 215MP, 4 pop and 3 pool - very spammable. Even if they get used in a suicide run, they're still almost always able to take out more than they're worth. But I don't mean to argue the details of IA, I merely wanted to highlight it an as example.

There is a time cost in designing, implementing and patching something. From what your typing you seem to be forgetting that people are spending their time doing this as a side project.

A good point, but this only furthers the argument I was making earlier: if time is limited, and only so much can get done so quickly, wouldn't it make the most sense to make small, quick fixes that address the major issues and the largest complaints, rather than designing and creating new systems from scratch while everything else gets put on hold? As has been stated earlier, addressing the issues of Asymmetric Warfare, Incendiary Assault, Infantry Officer spam, etc would be a quick process, yet make the game incredibly more popular and fun.

I'll also highlight the issue of 'Developer burnout'

Using the same argument as before, if dev burnout is a relevant issue, wouldn't it be the best idea to take on smaller, easier projects that get a lot done, rather than increasing your workload exponentially?

And in relation to both of these issues, couldn't there be a drive to increase community involvement? Even if these helpers aren't as specialized as the developers themselves, more helping hands would always decrease the turnaround time on projects, and reduce the workload on the dev team. Even something as simple as more maps/skins, or more active Helpers/Mentors would greatly increase player registration and retention rate, yet these areas have been left relatively dead as of recently.

EiRR doesn't have some QA department waiting for a new build. The Community is the QA.

And this only furthers my point that BoB and company need to actually play the mod before making major decisions. What kind of design & development team has zero contact with its QA team? How, again, is it a good thing to have a dev team that is out of touch with both the game they are creating, and the community they are creating it for?

[Unkn0wn]

And this only furthers my point that BoB and company need to actually play the mod before making major decisions. What kind of design & development team has zero contact with its QA team? How, again, is it a good thing to have a dev team that is out of touch with both the game they are creating, and the community they are creating it for?

I like how you generalise Bob to being the entire development team.
Bob and the Development team have played the game extensively before they made the design decisions that they made. And I can assure you the development teams is not 'out of touch".

Just because a loud minority of the community may disagree with a decision doesn't mean the entire community disagrees and the development team is out of touch.

Ah well, I don't know why I am still arguing with you about this.

[EIRRMod]

Unlocked.

Feel free to discuss.

[DarkSoldierX]

sounds cool

[3rdCondor]

I just finished reading all of the important posts on this thread.... somehow I missed it the first time when it was posted. I'm pretty excited about this system! So as the war progresses, the factions progress and the companies become more customized... and challenging to play against.

[Nevyen]

Damn it made it to 16 pages!

[lionel23]

Damnit beat me to it Nevyen! Let's aim for 17 pages now!

So anyway... what is the original discussion? Back to factional progression now or are we talking balance team/issues (like the last page before this)?

[EIRRMod]

So anyway... what is the original discussion? Back to factional progression now or are we talking balance team/issues (like the last page before this)?

Anything really lionel.

If you can spot some potential issues with this progression method - Id like to hear em

[lionel23]

Well what do you got to say, oh holy art though EIRRMOD?

There is the implementation of the new warmap, will that have anything to do with it? There are so many details that well.. without knowing them its hard to discuss ^^

[Jstek]

Heres what I think.  I only was able to read half this thread and stopped after it was being spammed with shit talk.

Anyways, i am going to pull on some successful aspects I liked in COHO.

1.  More Vet levels are good.  Going up to at least LVL 5 should be easy.  Check out COHO heroes.
2.  PP should be supply.  Yeah, just a footnote.  Anyways, there needs to be some kind of currancy in the game.
3.  Carve out the Dotrine abilities into more pieces.  Alot more.  Should be easy enough.  You have mulitable buffs on a large range of units.  Each of those buffs or whatever, can be split.  You want to get a large pool going.
4.  Why?  Well, every company will have a set number of points that can be 'trained' into the company and 'retrained' if needed (though it will cost currancey or supply or whatever it is going to be called).  You have your reward cards, offmaps, ect..  Anyways, make it so you can only slot so many into a company...  Say like 10 or 20 or whatever you think you can ballance.
5.  No all those dotrinnes and unlocks you split up..  Make them cost Supply or whatever,  Like in COHO you could charge up the abilities for use.   Now..  doctines and unlocks can be avialable based on rank, but are always accessable.  Now the cool shit is this..
6.  Your rewards, your warcards.. make them random drops, collections 1 or x use items but they cost supply to use too.  But you can have cool shit like wil unlock a ranked abilitiy that you cant acccess yet for example, or be able to access +2 slots that can be put into the company.
7.  So now with games, you play you earn supply.  Granted some ablities, calldowns, doctrines, advantages,  will require more supply or whatever...  They have to be paid... what this does is allow for more customization...
8.  And it rewards you for playing..  keep you playing...  just a thought..  Might be alot more work, but somthing in this scale could be helpfull.
9.  Granted, I dont know much what is comming on the warmap already.... it does sound cool and i imagine it will require adjustment points.
10.  Oh after thoguht, Adding heroes cant be bad.. COHO did it and loved it..  Just amek it so when theydie, they cant come back..  At least without using another warmap card, or akak hereo point or however, you want to set that up.

Benifitis btw, for splitting up stuff into smaller pieces..   You can add more later.  You can make adjustments to them easier for balaancing that does not push the entire community into rage mode.    You can target specific issues more precisely.  Say, hmmm yeah the tiger damaged bonus is too much 25% was too much.. lets just reduce the tiger one down to 10%.  Also, you can include subpar versions that cost less supply.  Yeah top doctrin can use the 25% damaged buff, but prhaps a smaller version or two can be used like a 10% and a 5% bonus for less cost...  though (it still takes a slot)  Just ideas being tossed around...

Hope it goes into a meaningfull place.

[RoyalHants]

No heroes ,heroes were a coho thing and makes coh look more like WoW