Balance changes

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[Groundfire]

Also, I brought this up in the changelog thread when it was made but nobody responded to the direct argument, just skirted along arguing other things. Why was 50mm Hotchkiss nerfed to match Tetrach levels of penetration, when it costs more, is slower, and doesn't come in a glider? If it really needed nerfs then nerf it in a way that makes sense, not just match it with a Tetrach which is better than it in other ways.

Upgun hotchkisses had ridiculous penetration modifiers against Pershings. As such, 2 hotchkisses would handily take down 2 pershings. The upgun was almost a copy of the old OF Little John upgrade that allowed tetrarchs to penetrate Jadgpanthers from the front with ease.

It was a broken little upgrade that needed to be brought in line because it's supposed to be a pea shooter, not a heavy tank killer.

[Artekas]

That still doesn't answer why it should match a Tet specifically, when the Tet is cheaper, faster, and deploys anywhere.

[Groundfire]

The hotchkiss is also can be a non-doctrinal artillary piece?

Idk, i thought that the explanation I gave was good enough. It was long due for a change.

The penetration modifier on the old upgun was something like x20, and if it does the same job as the tet upgun, there's no reason to not copy the stats over, as opposed to wasting hours creating a new RGD entry for a gun of which we have a suitable replacement for already.

[Killer344]

That still doesn't answer why it should match a Tet specifically, when the Tet is cheaper, faster, and deploys anywhere.

It doesn't, tetrarchs can't kite tanks (40 range), while hotchkisses can (45 range).

So... all of your theories could have easily been disproven by just checking the stats.

lols

[Artekas]

The Hotchkiss Stuka has absolutely nothing to do with anything because it's a completely different unit with a different gun.

Actually, the upgun doesn't give any penetration modifier. It's an entirely new gun. A new gun that is not 20x better, for the record. The LJA for Tet gives it 3.6x penetration modifier.

Long due for a chance doesn't explain the change that was specifically made. It does the same job as the Tet, except it's on a different side, costs more, is slower, and can't come in gliders. I've been over this. Copying over penetration values without regard for any of these factors is just lazy and not a good way to balance the game.

Both are entirely capable of kiting, given that they still outrange normal tanks. Nonetheless... when is the last time you have seen a Tetrach or Hotchkiss trying to kite?

And Killer, stop trying to be a smartass. I didn't say that the Marder has more splash than an MBT, which is easily disproven by the stats. This scenario is completely different, as I'm not basing my entire argument around "Tetrach has more range than Hotchkiss" so you aren't funny and just come off as a retard. Also, you completely ignored context, you said "it doesn't" in response to a statement about Hotchkiss matching Tet in penetration, which it was nerfed to be, which has nothing to do with range whatsoever. The fact that the Hotchkiss has 5 more range doesn't have any bearing on the fact that the fact Hotchkiss was nerfed to match Tetrach penetration values.

[TheLastArmada]

they simply cant kite their more flanking tanks then anything,
using them for anything else is suicide

[Killer344]

Tetrarchs do not outrange normal tanks, they have 40 range just like the tetrarch.

I think you need to go to sleep, do I really need to explain you how easy is to kite a "TANK" with 40 range like a cromwell/sherman/churchill/pershing with a "LIGHT VEHICLE" (it translates into = faster) that has 45 range? Even m10s can kite stugs and p4s (same range difference = 5) with less acceleration in comparison to the hotchkiss.

Range is everything in this game, being able to not take fire back is the most important thing in the meta-game, that's why tetrachs =/= hotchkiss.

Also, being able to 100% penetrate a pershing (before the nerf) and being able to kite it as well seems like a big deal for a light vehicle imho.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Tetrarchs do not outrange normal tanks, they have 40 range just like the tetrarch.

I think you need to go to sleep, do I really need to explain you how easy is to kite a "TANK" with 40 range like a cromwell/sherman/churchill/pershing with a "LIGHT VEHICLE" (it translates into = faster) that has 45 range? Even m10s can kite stugs and p4s (same range difference = 5) with less acceleration in comparison to the hotchkiss.

Range is everything in this game, being able to not take fire back is the most important thing in the meta-game, that's why tetrachs =/= hotchkiss.

Also, being able to 100% penetrate a pershing (before the nerf) and being able to kite it as well seems like a big deal for a light vehicle imho.

Stop even reading artekas posts, he thinks just because he read the 'paper' stats on units he is the lord of the game. Tbh, just ignore him and move on. He has yet to play enough games to come close to understanding it.

[Killer344]

Chill out. 

[Groundfire]

Now now children.

No use going around insulting each other, over a legit question.

Artekas, killer is pretty much 100% right on this one. Range is big. Also there just isnt a need to custom tailor a units gun in a game of precentages. There are already a wide assortment of guns in this game to copy from. They are practically made for you because all vehicles follow a type of gun system.

Like how all Shermans/P4s/Cromwells etc do 87.3 damage on a penetrating shot.
All Pershings/Tigers/Panthers do 134.5(ish i cant remember) on a penetrating shot.

Penetration tables are no different, its just the hotchkiss one was really really wacky and it had to be brought in line.

[Artekas]

Give me just one replay of a Hotchkiss kiting a tank, because that is something I have literally never seen happen, and I'm seriously doubting I ever will see happen. 5 range is tiny and there are no range indicators in game, making kiting with such a short range advantage finnicky. I've done it with M10s before, almost always against the PzIV, but that's generally because the PzIV is afraid to move forward and engage an M10 where it will most assuredly lose for cost, and I'm kiting it as it backs away.

As important as you think range is, it has no bearing on the statement of fact that the Hotchkiss penetration was nerfed to match Tetrach penetration. It doesn't matter if the Hotchkiss had 1024 range, that doesn't increase the penetration, so you can't say "it isn't" in response to that statement.

Ah, nevermind it. I like Spartan's post. It summarizes everything that is wrong with the community in one neat little post, the absolutely perfect example of what a bad post is, and is the typical kind of post made here. It contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion and instead relies on personal insults. With that, I am done with the mod. My only regret is that I didn't get to spam riflenades more. 

PS Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not ragequitting just because Spartan Marine insulted me. But rather because this is the typical behaviour that I see all the time on the forum, especially in balance discussions, and I'm just tired of it.

PPS Props on the amazing mod, it is easily the most fun mod I've ever played for anything. I just wish the community was better.

[Killer344]

lol, I didn't think you were the kind of guy who runs easily, that's why I got agressive. Well, the meat grinder took another victim, some pass it and eventually carry the torch that keeps the mod going forward... the rest falls into oblivion.

The ad homines are as meaningfull as you make them be btw, maybe you should try ignoring them.

[Artekas]

My leaving has nothing to do with your posts, just the ad hominem posts. You at least provided an argument, Spartan and most others don't.

[Groundfire]

Sorry to see you go.

It's a shame that you let people on a message board get under your skin.

Yeah, this community needs to stop spitting venom, but then again, i gave 2 reasonable explanations for why an penetration upgrade vs. the pershing was brought down from +%200 to -%50 because thats just how light vehicles should function and it still wasnt good enough.

I didnt make the change but most people around here objectively agree that it was a positive balance adjustment.

Meh, hope you come back artekas
:/

[Killer344]

My leaving has nothing to do with your posts, just the ad hominem posts. You at least provided an argument, Spartan and most others don't.

'Tis the internet buddy, and if you want to rank up high enough in the mod to reach a "kid-less" free place like the advisors forum, work your ass off for it  .

[Artekas]

A community where I must 'work my ass off' to be able to have a mature discussion with a select few is a bad one, I do believe.

I'll come back when the community grows up, which means basically never unless something is done to curtail shitty posting. Right now people just post whatever the fuck they want in balance forums, without actually making any arguments at all, and as a result most threads are just shit throwing competitions.

For the record, Groundfire, upon further consideration I've decided that you're right about Tets/Hotchkiss. You made good arguments.

[Groundfire]

For the record, Groundfire, upon further consideration I've decided that you're right about Tets/Hotchkiss. You made good arguments.

Fantastic!  

I'll come back when the community grows up, which means basically never unless something is done to curtail shitty posting. Right now people just post whatever the fuck they want in balance forums, without actually making any arguments at all, and as a result most threads are just shit throwing competitions.

Oh and this is why we got the balance team. Usually if a person on the fourm is in a "shit throwing competition" then he aint one of the people that matters. lol

We love educated, well mannered balance posts. They get talked up alot in the internal fourms (as well as the crappier ones that warrant some credibility)

So the shit throwing is largely unesecessary, just let it roll off your back.

[Killer344]

Oh well, when I used to lock and delete all the stupid threads everyone QQ'd about it (I can't say I didn't see that coming from a mile away though  ).... I got tired back then... maybe I should start again.

[Spartan_Marine88]

A community where I must 'work my ass off' to be able to have a mature discussion with a select few is a bad one, I do believe.

I'll come back when the community grows up, which means basically never unless something is done to curtail shitty posting. Right now people just post whatever the fuck they want in balance forums, without actually making any arguments at all, and as a result most threads are just shit throwing competitions.

For the record, Groundfire, upon further consideration I've decided that you're right about Tets/Hotchkiss. You made good arguments.

Look, im sorry you feel this way. Im sorry for insulting you. But my point only was throw out the 'unit' stats for abit. Play some more games, this mod has a STEEP learning curve. I saw you the day you started playing this mod posting 'balance' changes before you had a really good feel for it.

I apologize once again. All i meant to ever say was play more I felt this mod was imba to hell when i first started and i played VCOH from beta. But then i learned, played, learned some more. Now i feel except for a few things this is a terrific mod.

But what you should honestly do is just please, don't say how i insulted you on the forums, get vent talk to me. Ill tell you who to go to help learn to play your faction. Play on vent, its the biggest reason newbies ragequit saying this mod is to hard, because the other team talks to each other and Hulk Smashes them.

[Artekas]

I saw you the day you started playing this mod posting 'balance' changes before you had a really good feel for it.

Because of this shit, I'm not even reading the rest of your post. All you're doing is making shit up, so that you can throw it at me. Joined on November 8th, made first balance post on November 18th, after playing over 60 games.