The Hotchkiss is UP

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[Artekas]

I finally stopped being lazy and checked the RGDs... the 50mm Hotchkiss does have .35 accuracy against infantry, although for some really weird reason it was nerfed to have a further .25 accuracy against moving infantry. I think that should be reverted.

[bbsmith]

I wasn't aware of any changes made to the 50mm Hotchkiss. It has always been like that, even in vcoh.

[Artekas]

Oh, you're right. For some reason I remembered it having 1 accuracy against moving infantry but I just checked coh stats and it's 0.25 accuracy against moving infantry. Herp derp derp, nevermind then.

[11on2d6]

um....ok....clearly im looking at the wrong thing :s, sorry for that... OK now im starting to doubt my numbers from before lol >.<.

0.25% s moving accuracy compounded by 0.35 acuracy is pretty...bad lol. 0.0875...lol.

[Artekas]

Not really, overall it has 8% accuracy against moving infantry while the Firefly has 10% accuracy against moving infantry. Given the fire rate and splash, the Hotchkiss is still better against infantry.

[LeoPhone]

Excuse the poor quality of this one. For those that cant see the m10 had about 1/3 hp left, full health hotchkiss comes out to chase it down. All except 1 shot were at rear, hotchkiss still dies, though it did kill the m10. Cost effective? considering m10 had 1/3...hell no, upgunned puma would have done a much better job.

http://www.xfire.com/video/3d3b98/

This last video totally shows why rgds sometimes simply dont make sense at all. this unit is fail.
I suggest to at least give it an extra 50 hp just for tryout. that way it can still fight after 2 atg hits.

Smokaz is right that upgun Hotchkiss is cheap, fuel-wise anyway. Comparing to M10, being AT chase units, well, judge by yourself based on the stats. M10 doesn't penetrate heavy tanks frontally either.

Personally, I think the 100 less HP on the hotchkiss, plus the prevalence of manpacked AT, makes it harder to use than the M10. But like the M10, if the Hotchkiss can avoid manpacked AT, it should rape vehicles as fast as the M10 does.

M10
HP:400
Speed: 6.8
Acceleration: 1.7
Damage: 112.5 per 4.2 seconds (28 DPS)
Cost: 300/0/190
Pop: 10

Upgun Hotchkiss
HP:300
Speed: 6.5
Acceleration: 4.0
Damage: 75 per 2.8 seconds (27 DPS)
Cost: 310/0/70
Pop: 8

[11on2d6]

Not really, overall it has 8% accuracy against moving infantry while the Firefly has 10% accuracy against moving infantry. Given the fire rate and splash, the Hotchkiss is still better against infantry.

aight fair point, but what I was trying to say really was that its sucks, huge monkey balls vs infantry, to the point where your wating your time. It cant even chase off a lone rifle squad caping by itself properly. Its a dedicated anti tank light vehicle, but it doesnt have the hp or the damage to play any proper role in a tank battle.

[Artekas]

I wouldn't mind a change that put it more on par with other AV LVs in anti-infantry fire power. Nonetheless, it still wouldn't be that good at killing infantry, so it'd be primarily for fighting vehicles just like the puma and stuart.

[smurfORnot]

I had mine come for upgun sherman with only 1/4 or less helath,he did kill sherman,but he did die in process also...

[Illegal_Carrot]

I had mine come for upgun sherman with only 1/4 or less helath,he did kill sherman,but he did die in process also...

The problem is, as I have said before, is that the Hotchkiss lacks any sort of dodge or evasion, which would actually allow it to preform it's job. The Upgun Hotch has two jobs:
1) Support other AT weapons, and tack on damage to enemy armor throughout an engagement.
2) Chase down and kill enemy armor with >25% health.

Now here's the problem:
1) If the Hotch sticks around in any engagement too long (which it has to in order to do its job), it will die. A single ATG shot or two Zooks/RRs will take half your health, and you're forced off to repair, often before you even get a shot in. Even if you engage the enemy at max range, the Hotch is a bullet magnet that will usually get taken out before it can even make its cost back (or be useful in any way at all). Unlike the 50mm Puma (which gets dodge bonuses) or the Staghound (which has much better health and armor).
2) Again, the fact that the Hotchkiss is a bullet magnet comes into play here, but the Hotch's lack of received-moving-accuracy is even more apparent. You'd think that while both vehicles are moving at max range the Hotch would be able to dodge a few shots, but the video 11on2d6 posted earlier is actually the norm: while the Hotch plinks away and generally doesn't accomplish much, it gets two- or three-shot by just about everything. Also look at the video of the Pershing chasing the Hotch again; while both vehicles are moving at max range, the Pershing hits 100% of the time with four shots, while the Hotch misses and bounces shots.

Unfortunately, the 50mm Hotch can't even engage enemy infantry and light vehicles like the 50mm Puma, Stag, M8, T17 and even Stuart can. Infantry because of its terrible accuracy, and LVs because of its poor accuracy, lack of dodge and poor health.
The Hotch needs a slight buff to its HP and dodge plain and simple.

posting single incidents will never convince me.

The problem is that what he posted wasn't just a strange coincidence, it's a regular occurrence with the Hotch. If you'd play with the Hotch a bit (a perspective from both sides of the issue is necessary in a discussion like this), then you'd agree with this wholeheartedly.
We've given the arguments, presented the facts and even posted videos to exemplify the point. What else do you need to be convinced?
If the Hotch doesn't blow, then I'm sure you can come up with dozens of videos of it owning.

[Artekas]

I'm not going to go and start playing PE again just to come up with dozens of videos for you, sorry. If that's what it'll take to convince you I guess you won't be convinced.

Here's a comprehensive list of pros and cons to the Hotchkiss compared with the 50mm Puma.

Pros
Much better penetration (generally over two times better)
Twice the rate of fire (3 second reload instead of 6 second reload)
More range (45 instead of 40)
Slightly more damage (75 instead of 67.5, one less shot to kill everything)
Slightly less penetration drop (0.9x long 1x med instead of 0.8x long 0.9x med)
Slightly better armour (doesn't get hurt by .30 cal AP lawl)
Slightly more deceleration (5 instead of 4.5)

Cons
No dodge bonus (1x received moving accuracy instead of 0.8x/0.75x)
Less accurate against infantry (0.35x instead of 0.5x)
Less accurate against moving infantry (0.25x instead of 1x)
Costs slightly more MP (310 instead of 280)
Slightly less HP (300 instead of 310, no difference in anything)
Slightly less speed (6.5 instead of 7)
Slightly less acceleration (4 instead of 4.5)

If it's not listed above, the values are the same. Let me know if I missed anything, but I don't think I did. I bolded the differences that I think matter. If you disagree with me, please feel free to explain why. Basically, the only things the Puma can do better is kill infantry and dodge, the former of which it still is not good at because it has 25% accuracy in normal situations, with a 6 second reload. It will hit and kill one rifleman every 24 seconds, on average, not counting the splash from misses which is the same for the Hotchkiss. The dodge is overrated... it will still be hit 75% of the time that the Hotchkiss would, and given that they both die to two ATG shots, there stands a fair chance of the dodge never coming into play, statistically speaking. If you give dodge to the Hotchkiss, the only thing the Puma can do better is kill a rifleman every 24 seconds where the Hotchkiss wouldn't, and be oh so slightly faster. Does this sound balanced to you?

Just counting rate of fire, the gun for the Hotchkiss is already twice as good against vehicles. Against Sherman armour and better, a bit more than four times as good. Not even counting the range and damage. This is a HUGE improvement to the gun, and let's say it had dodge... the Puma would be obsolete, because such an amazing gun is not made up for being able to kind of kill infantry. I consider it evenly matched as is, because a gun that's at least twice as effective in intended situations (killing vehicles) and even better in others is well worth the fact that the Puma will dodge every one in four shots against something that takes two to kill it.

Edit: I reread this post and I want to make sure I don't come off the wrong way. I'm not saying that the dodge is useless at all. I just think its effect on survivability is overstated. While it's certainly useful I don't think it's outright better than having a gun that's minimum 2x better against the intended targets. Considering this is the MAIN difference between the 50mm Puma and 50mm Hotchkiss, giving it to the 50mm Hotchkiss would just be way too much, and I think that the 50mm Hotchkiss' main unique factor does even out with the 50mm Puma's main unique factor, making it balanced in relation to each other.

[spinn72]

I just saw a Hotchkiss lose to a t17..
Bottom line is: It's useless!

[Grundwaffe]

It is

[Artekas]

I just saw a Hotchkiss solo a Pershing
Bottom line is: It's overpowered!

herpderp

[Demon767]

I just saw a Hotchkiss lose to a t17..
Bottom line is: It's useless!

+1 saw it aswell

[Illegal_Carrot]

I just saw a Hotchkiss lose to a t17..
Bottom line is: It's useless!

Ya, it's 5:30Am here and I must be heading off, but tomorrow I'll post the vid.

I'll post more tomorrow, but real quick at Artekas: the extra range and slight extra damage honestly mean dick all on the Hotch despite what you may think (and those benefits literally don't exist on the 37mm Hotch), and the Puma actually has better armor in some situations. That leaves RoF, penetration and decel.

However, you seem to discount the Puma's advantages more than you should: that 10 extra HP means you can take two 57mm shells or four Bazooka hits and keep going (+ survive to repair). Couple that with a x.75 dodge bonus, and you can effectively take 6.25 Bazooka hits or 3-4 ATG shots, vs 4 and 2, respectively, on the the Hotch.
Speed and acceleration also are a huge advantage, as the less time you spend in an AT unit's range/LoS, the greater your chances of survival. When you get two-shot by just about everything, you need to be able to get the fuck out of dodge real quick. If you played PE, you'd know this.

I just saw a Hotchkiss solo a Pershing
Bottom line is: It's overpowered!

herpderp

We're not making shit up just to fuck with you dude, these are regular occurrences with the Hotchkiss. The sooner you understand the fact that anecdotal evidence does having some bearing in these discussions, the sooner people will take you more seriously here. Understanding how things work on-paper is great, but things often play out differently in-game, and it's not all just luck.

[RoyalHants]

I just saw a Hotchkiss solo a Pershing
Bottom line is: It's overpowered!

herpderp

+1 if it were to hae dodge it would make it a hard to hit rapid fireing at  weapon thats fast for 80 fuel OP much?

[Illegal_Carrot]

+1 if it were to hae dodge it would make it a hard to hit rapid fireing at  weapon thats fast for 80 fuel OP much?

Yes, becuase a little .8 modifier would make them impossible to hit

You guys are honestly putting way too much emphasis on a slight accuracy modifier. Even if you give them the exact same stats as a Puma, the Hotch will still be easier to hit. Why? Because the Puma gets Magic Phase Armor that cause things to miss, even when they shouldn't. (That's another thing you fail to take into account when you only look at RGDs).

[Artekas]

However, you seem to discount the Puma's advantages more than you should: that 10 extra HP means you can take two 57mm shells or four Bazooka hits and keep going (+ survive to repair).

No, actually. You've overlooking how the game engine works. You cannot kill anything in this game by reducing it to zero HP. This is why even though deflections do damage, they can't kill things. This is also a part of why the 5% bug exists. When a shot hits and penetrates, it inflicts damage. After it does this damage, it checks for criticals based on how much health was remaining after that hit. If there is 5% or less health left, it uses the red critical table. Now a result from the red critical table is randomly generated; either the unit is killed (there are separate entries on the red critical that can be rolled that will both result in being killed, one normal and one for out of control), the gun is destroyed, or the engine is destroyed. This also explains the 5% bug: it occurs when the same result is rolled multiple times in a row, for example gun destroyed. After the gun is already gone it rolls it again but since the gun is already destroyed, it doesn't have any effect. The Hotchkiss is put into the red criticals at 15 HP remaining, the Puma is put into the red criticals at 15.5 HP remaining. This does not affect anything. If you do the math with the Hotchkiss against various targets, you'll see that anything with more than 300 HP will take one hit less to kill than with a Puma.

Speed and acceleration also are a huge advantage,

They are, but the differences in speed and acceleration are not that big. If it were say, 5.5 speed and 3 acceleration against 7 speed and 4.5 acceleration I'd totally agree with you, but it's not.

I'm interested more than anything about your take on why the range isn't important. I've never seen anyone suggest that range isn't an important thing in Company of Heroes before.

Bits and pieces of anecdotal evidence are irrelevant. Once again, I am going to bring up my favourite piece of anecdotal evidence - an ATG fucking raped my assault grenadiers. Does this mean ATGs are overpowered? No, of course not. Now, you say that this is a regular occurrence unlike my ATG incident - but you don't do anything to prove that. You told me that if it's as good as I say I should be able to easily get dozens of videos of it performing. Well... if it's as bad as you say, you should easily be able to get dozens of videos, right? Fun stuff.

I used the Hotchkiss a lot, and I loved it. It was the only AT as PE I actually liked using, and I basically relied on it. I never saw it being useless, or anywhere near as weak as you guys describe. PS Don't misinterpret this as me saying it was the only AT I used as PE, I still had Marders, Panzershrecks, and sometimes a couple of Light AT Halftracks and/or 50mm AT Halftracks.

Because the Puma gets Magic Phase Armor that cause things to miss, even when they shouldn't.

Not sure, but this looks like another misinterpretation of game mechanics. Phase armour only makes things miss if they would have missed anyways but scattered into the Puma. It doesn't cause things that are registered as hits to miss. While it is a slight advantage for the Puma, it's not something huge, and it only really affects RRs which rely on their low scatter to be good.

[Mysthalin]

Also ATGs and tanks, Artekas...