[WM] Battle Hardened

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[3rdCondor]

Giving free elite armor to grens and storms? Sounds kinda op to me tbh, but it also sounds pretty cool. Solution? I think I have one:

Suggestion: Make it an unlock instead of a free doctrine ability. I would pay 30 munitions for heroic armor on a grenadier squad. Cost should be discussed but I strongly recommend the idea of making it an unlock instead of an ability. Cooldown and reload buffs are one thing, but giving free elite armor to basic infantry is just borderline (maybe even flat out) op in my opinion... and I know I'm not alone. Most people are keeping quiet because they want this ability. If it was something that had to be purchased than maybe it wouldn't be so hard core.... but still useful.

Optional suggestion: give elite armor unlock to defensive doctrine and the 'volks purchase grenade' to blitz... but still keeping that double shrek bonus for defensive.

Other ideas about how to handle elite armor? please post. I would really like to keep it, but we need to have a better system. In my personal opinion, as long as we have to pay for it, it can stick around.


EDIT: Lionel and I had a discussion a while back about how we would like to have an ability to purchase armor for riflemen as well. It might be a good idea to think about this for the American faction as well as WM.

[Killer344]

Elite Armor, not Heroic.

[Demon767]

bahaha

[3rdCondor]

thnx killer sorry for the typo

It's still pretty destructive tho because I've witnessed it used heavily about 8 times or so, which is enough to cause me to question the ability. If all the devs choose to leave it as it is, then I'll be happy... as an axis player.

[Tymathee]

units with elite armor with 90+ hp? wonderful...

[Killer344]

Elite Armor means:

American Weapons

Grease Gun - 25% less accuracy
Garand - 25% less accuracy 25% less damage
Carbine - 25% less accuracy 25% less damage
BAR- 25% less accuracy
Flamethrower- 18% more damage
Strafe - 25% less accuracy 25% less damage
Quad 50 - 25% less accuracy, 15% more suppression
Thompson - 25% less accuracy
.30 HMG - 25% less accuracy 25% less damage 15% more suppression
Sniper Rifle- 300% more accuracy

British Weapons

Lee Enfield - 25% less accuracy 25% less damage
Commando Steen - 25% less accuracy
Bren LMG - 25% less accuracy
Rifle Grenade - 25% less accuracy 25% less damage
Vickers HMG - 25% less accuracy
Commando HMG - 25% less accuracy 15% more suppression
Bofors - 5% less accuracy
Churchill 6 liber - 15% less accuracy
Churchill flamethrower - 18% more damage

[3rdCondor]

Thanks for the stats killer but it looked pretty insane to me in game. And should it really be free?

[Killer344]

It is indeed good, I'm not arguing anything, just posting relevant stuff before the thread gets filled with people who barely know what they're talking about.

[3rdCondor]

Fair enough. It's a pretty exciting tier 4 for blitz.

[Groundfire]

I think it's perfectly fine.

This is not something that we just invented. vCoH practically functions around wehrmacht and everything in wehrmacht having elite armor mid game to scale with BARs, M8s, Mandos, increased US vet, etc.

Considering we took a 4 tiered tech tree and crammed it into the EIRR game style, Battle hardened Wehr is perfectly normal and only alittle more cost effective than an equivalent "all ranger" company or some other build that relies heavily on Elite armor.

[smurfORnot]

it's the only thing that saves this T4. What other sutff from this T4 are so great? KHC buff,yea,185mun for 3 man unit,thank you,but no thank you,didnt rly saw anyone using it.
Free bundle nade is nice.

[NightRain]

I must say that Joint Ops is one of the best Tier 4s within the tree. I've scolded it and deemed it shit but after using it with a specific company build for it. I must say it is the best tier 4 within the Blitzkrieg tier.

StuGs and Infantry. Assault shows no signs of it coming so no one never knows if it comes or not. Keep it Moving, a free sprint with 30 second cooldown you can charge enemy without them ever touching your mans. Ontop of it all you get more pop and 5m range for that smoke barrage for your StuG. Your stug can fire that smoke wall and sprint your infantry at enemy positions, or your allies infantry. It is the ultimate Blitzkrieg ability that can ram through enemy lines without them managing to do much. ATGs and HMGs? Faust/Nade. Blobs of infantry? Assault + StuG slide. All of those? Use all of them together!

Remember: Blitzkrieg =/= Tank Doctorine.

It was specially built for: Rapid Deployment, Quick pushes, Blitzkrieging. Think about it: You get Lightning War, Joint Ops and Elite infantry. All this means pushing forward as fast as possible:

NOT THIS:

Starting:
Mortar
HMG
PAK38
2x Grens (Shreck, LMG)

Later on: 2x Tigers
^
NOT THIS!

Blitzkrieg: Stuka run the key target then assault in, crush enemy lines and secure the position defend/Attack against enemy's unorganized reinforcement.

Look at the doctorine tree. You get the keys for everything.

Smoke barrage: Useful you deploy a entire WALL of smoke to help to push or retreat. Recommendation: Push

Recon: You can see what they have and then target key units: HMG, Mortar, ATG.

Stormtroopers: Silent yet deadly assault force.

Keep it Moving: Sprint for infantry near tanks for 35m.

Blitzkrieg

Lightning War

etc. It ain't Heavy tank doctorine. It is a assault doctorine. Push, breakthrough, destroy, rinse and repeat.

[smurfORnot]

maybe a replay so rest of us can see how it's used effectivly,preferably against skilled opponent? Because it is always better to see it in action,atleast less skilled players will be able to better use it then.

[NightRain]

maybe a replay so rest of us can see how it's used effectivly,preferably against skilled opponent? Because it is always better to see it in action,atleast less skilled players will be able to better use it then.

I will offer one when the time grants one I WILL add a replay- actually I might give one too if I still have it. Ofc its not vs the most skilled ones.

Edit: Sorry it ended up as a sync error so there wont be any replay for now.

The replay will contain players with balls that's for sure

[Firesparks]

I think it's perfectly fine.

This is not something that we just invented. vCoH practically functions around wehrmacht and everything in wehrmacht having elite armor mid game to scale with BARs, M8s, Mandos, increased US vet, etc.

except the elite armor in vcoh is the wehr's veterancy. our Storm and grenadier have their own veterancy that stacks on top of the elite armor.

The US veterancy in EIRR is also neutered from what it was in vcoh.

[BigDick]

thats right but in vcoh there are no tankreaper zooks/ATGs or high accurate marksmen full speed moving tommies or basic infanty with 50% more accuracy and 10% less recived accuracy etc.

if we need to consider making tankreaper zooks and ATGs armor types etc. an aditional upgrade cost or making these more expensive assaulting rifles we should think about removing the doctrine tree and having just upgrades/seperate units

I must say that Joint Ops is one of the best Tier 4s within the tree. I've scolded it and deemed it shit but after using it with a specific company build for it. I must say it is the best tier 4 within the Blitzkrieg tier.

probably thats actually not bad and is a good team buff

but since my team consists often of random failguys X+Y who are not even capable to use their 25 pop starting callin i actually wouldn't take it because i doubt its doing so much for me alone (+2 pop in 3v3?)

[brn4meplz]

The Buff is ineffectual vs Tanks. Most doctrines that directly affect infantry have means of meeting the gap through Damage(Additional weapons or Accuracy buffs). While in no case does an infantry focused Tier 4 buff overpower Elite Armour they certainly close the gap fairly well and typically boost another area by a good amount. Battle Hardened is Elite armour. Everything else is cost affected(Additional Faust/nade/bundled) requires a Purchase to begin with. Your typical Anti-Infantry counters are still viable, just less effective.

Obviosuly a Tank Reaper player will struggule without proper control but it's not an impossible task. Or even an overly difficult one.


Also I agree that Joint Ops is the best Tier 4 in Blitz. With proper construction it provides so many "saves"(Smoke, Sprint, Assault, Earlier deployment to win the initiative).
Lightning War is High attrition aggression(Lightning War wins are usually evident in the first 10 mins or are a direct result of Call-in timers) and Battle Hardened boosts your standard infantry play. Where as Joint Ops allows you to breach lines with higher Population and still have units alive afterwards.

[smurfORnot]

how you do that stug slide?

[Heartmann]

click and slide?

[AmPM]

STuG powerslide has almost nothing to do with the speed of the STuG, it's more about tricking the AI.

You move your STuG, then click near it but on one side, STuG slides to the spot.