*

Account

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 25, 2024, 11:23:42 am

Login with username, password and session length

Resources

Recent posts

[September 06, 2024, 11:58:09 am]

[September 05, 2024, 01:54:13 pm]

[July 16, 2024, 11:30:34 pm]

[June 22, 2024, 06:49:40 am]

[March 08, 2024, 12:13:38 am]

[March 08, 2024, 12:12:54 am]

[March 08, 2024, 12:09:37 am]

[December 30, 2023, 08:00:58 pm]

[February 04, 2023, 11:46:41 am]

[December 25, 2022, 11:36:26 am]
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Proposed: A Few Simple Rules To Ensure Balancing Integrity  (Read 17696 times)
0 Members and 24 Guests are viewing this topic.
Smokaz Offline
Honoured Member
*
Posts: 11418



« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2011, 10:39:18 am »

Quote
1. For tests such as this, the devs and certain members of the balance team can just give themselves the required units. They do have the power, so your required 3 months have been cut down to nothing.

Nope?

If you go back in time a few months sparta it created a immense amount of complaints that some people had access to this type of company editing testing, thus it was shut down.. so.. no?

Was it rational to limit this? No, but it was deemed inappropriate for test companies to play where it was the most natural, aka against other normal player. So when this was tried the community itself shut it down. 

Does regular balance forum gripes compete with the secretsauce forum and illuminati?

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=17390.0

Seems like it does.
Logged

SlippedHerTheBigOne: big penis puma
SlippedHerTheBigOne: and i have no repairkits
SlippedHerTheBigOne: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
PonySlaystation Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4136



« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2011, 10:43:50 am »

Either way, EIRR will still be fucked up and always swing towards one extreme or another.

Why? Because the system encourages spamming, afterall, you can only have so many hardcounters to a unit type.

That makes no sense. They fixed the light vehicles spam, you have nothing to complain about. You can also only have so many of the same unit type and if you for some reason have more then that's not really a good thing.
Logged

Sharks are not monsters Henley, they are cute, cuddly and misunderstood. They love humans. sometimes they love TOO much. They love people so much that sometimes their kisses separate people into two flailing pieces which are consumed by other sharks in a frenzy of peace and joy.
brn4meplz Offline
Misinformation Officer
*
Posts: 6952


« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2011, 10:51:02 am »

To put things in perspective I was giving about 20 hours a week of SQL work(helping, fixing, correcting) and I was still getting in 4-5 games a night in December. Most games run from 35-60 mins. Thats an excessive amount of time to commit to something strictly volunteer. (not even counting time waiting for games or time spent on other areas-You woudln't believe how hard brainstorming is!)

Logged

He thinks Tactics is a breath mint

Wow I think that was the nicest thing brn ever posted!  Tongue

the pussy of a prostitute is not tight enough for destroy a condom Wink
AmPM Offline
Community Mapper
*
Posts: 7978



« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2011, 10:57:24 am »

That makes no sense. They fixed the light vehicles spam, you have nothing to complain about. You can also only have so many of the same unit type and if you for some reason have more then that's not really a good thing.

And look how the game has gone farther towards infantry wave tactics.

As I said, the way the game is made it rewards spamming, because you can only field so many hard counters to things. Maybe once tanks can hold territory this will change again, who knows.
Logged


.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
PonySlaystation Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4136



« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2011, 11:26:13 am »

No, ampm, unless you have some actual footage and not just unreasonable claims then you have nothing to contribute here.

If you have footage of you losing to a worse player just because he "spammed" a single unit then go ahead, or if you have footage of you winning with this tactic against someone that plays better than you, then go ahead.

And here's a thought, try using a versatile company that can counter both tanks and infantry and plan accordingly to you play with, you could also try playing something other than PE. I'm just curious because I have never seen this work and you are claiming that everyone is doing it and that it's "ruining EIR". You are worse than CoH noobs that think that riflemen are overpowered simply because they overrun their mgs when it was in that house of invincibility, they have never used riflemen themselves of course, if they did it wouldn't be so OP.
Logged
Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
*
Posts: 18378


« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2011, 11:41:19 am »

Quote
As I said, the way the game is made it rewards spamming, because you can only field so many hard counters to things. Maybe once tanks can hold territory this will change again, who knows.
It's on our list but with us being so short on coding hands it has backtracked a little. Someone suggested allowing tanks to just cap territory as well as a stopgap, since that's much easier to code but that's probably going to take it too far.

We're well aware of the issues that currently reside in terms of game balance (a vast majority of them stem from flaws in doctrine design and balance flaws in the doctrine abilities), but I'm afraid that until Bob comes back or we get more RGD coders on board we're going to have to try and manage what we can. A large doctrine balance patching spree is still going to happen sooner or later though...

Anyway, as Smokaz so kindly pointed out, a lot of the balance gripes posted in the public forum do make it to the internal decision making kitchen, no matter what Wind or anyone else is trying to make you believe. Balance decisions shouldn't just be inspired by the input of a select few team members, a large portion of them should and do actually come from what our playerbase brings forward. (Provided that these public gripes are properly put forward and well rationalised)

It's not for nothing every now and then we have a 'Your biggest balance issue' thread in which we specifically ask all players to highlight their biggest issues. On top of keeping tracking of the usual flow of threads being created in the balance forum.
Logged
Smokaz Offline
Honoured Member
*
Posts: 11418



« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2011, 02:01:24 pm »

+1 to what unknown said

noone even has mentioned the possbility of secretsauce guys actually being brainless, uninventive maggots that steal ideas for balance fixes from the public forums. which means its like a republic, the people is being unknowingly represented :p
Logged
cloud234 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 363


« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2011, 02:45:04 pm »

And look how the game has gone farther towards infantry wave tactics.

As I said, the way the game is made it rewards spamming, because you can only field so many hard counters to things. Maybe once tanks can hold territory this will change again, who knows.

1. MGs.
2. Spamming is fundamentally flawed. It magnifies your strengths but it also magnifies your weakness. Starting picking your fights and stop slugging it out.

Balance is really good nowadays tbfh compared to a year ago? With the exception of certain OP doctrines and abilities.

@ Wind

With regards to the churchie nerf, I will cite the example of the sniper. Most players won't even earn back the 540 MP and 200 Muni cost... but in the hands of a good player, it will more than earn back its worth.

Churchie definitely works on the same basis.

Your thoughts on balancing is commendable, but really unworkable due to constraints which everyone has mentioned already.

Don't fix what's not broken. This current balance system is surprisingly working, though slowly.
Logged
AmPM Offline
Community Mapper
*
Posts: 7978



« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2011, 03:09:19 pm »

1. MGs.
2. Spamming is fundamentally flawed. It magnifies your strengths but it also magnifies your weakness. Starting picking your fights and stop slugging it out.

Balance is really good nowadays tbfh compared to a year ago? With the exception of certain OP doctrines and abilities.

@ Wind

With regards to the churchie nerf, I will cite the example of the sniper. Most players won't even earn back the 540 MP and 200 Muni cost... but in the hands of a good player, it will more than earn back its worth.

Churchie definitely works on the same basis.

Your thoughts on balancing is commendable, but really unworkable due to constraints which everyone has mentioned already.

Don't fix what's not broken. This current balance system is surprisingly working, though slowly.

MG's are viable, but they take up 6 pool compared to 3-4; thats the problem. If I use say, 4 MGs, 2 Mortars and 2 PaKs I have maxed out my support pool in Defensive (most support pool); for a Blitz or Terror company thats support pool + reserve pool.
Logged
Smokaz Offline
Honoured Member
*
Posts: 11418



« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2011, 03:28:31 pm »

It's a nice point that possibly both sides have access to too many MG negating counters.

I do believe this has grown forth in a period of the game where ME has been dominating.

This possibility should be looked at again after defend and attack type gameplay is reestablished to eirr by the warmap.
Logged
Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
*
Posts: 18378


« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2011, 03:37:23 pm »

We could also lower pool on mgs by 1 but that's likely going to put us on the edge tilting towards MG dominated gameplay like in the old days. Besides, the issue is really not there being a lack of mgs but simply there being too many counters out.
Logged
AmPM Offline
Community Mapper
*
Posts: 7978



« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2011, 03:46:40 pm »

Too much "infantry can ignore suppression" doctrine abilities IMO.
Logged
Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
*
Posts: 18378


« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2011, 03:48:07 pm »

There's no 'infantry can ignore suppression' abilities, and -15% received suppression type abilities are marginal at best in terms of the inpact they have on how fast a unit is suppressed.
Logged
Spartan_Marine88 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4838



« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2011, 03:59:03 pm »

There's no 'infantry can ignore suppression' abilities, and -15% received suppression type abilities are marginal at best in terms of the inpact they have on how fast a unit is suppressed.


Eh, it might give them the time to get off a grenade before they are glued to the ground, which will generally only kill on or 2 men on the mg
Logged

Yes that's me, the special snowflake.
PonySlaystation Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4136



« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2011, 04:00:58 pm »

Ranger fire up
Airborne fire up
Lieutenant fire up
Assault
Incendiary assault
Commando smoke
Rifle smoke (why does no one use this?)

To name a few.

Fire up is has the debuff afterwards so it's a gamble and fine balance wise.
Assault should be able to break suppression but not completely ignore it.

Mgs works fine to counter infantry, you can easily have 3-5 in your company.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 04:46:16 pm by PonySlaystation » Logged
NightRain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3908



« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2011, 04:06:05 pm »

Ranger fire up
Airborne fire up
Lieutenant fire up
Assault
Incendiary assault
Rifle smoke (why does no one use this?)

To name a few.

Fire up is has the debuff afterwards so it's a gamble and fine balance wise.
Assault should be able to break suppression but not completely ignore it.

Mgs works fine to counter infantry, you can easily have 3-5 in your company.

Assaulting troops will get suppressed if fired by suppression tools, they are just harder to suppress
Logged

Because a forum post should be like a woman's skirt. Long enough to cover the subject material, but short enough to keep things interesting.
Masacree Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 904


« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2011, 04:23:33 pm »

There's no 'infantry can ignore suppression' abilities, and -15% received suppression type abilities are marginal at best in terms of the inpact they have on how fast a unit is suppressed.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe the impact they have on how fast a unit is suppressed is "-15%."

Logged

I like how this forum in turn brings out the worst in anyone
To err is human, to eirr is retard
TheWindCriesMary Offline
The Ethics Police
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2630


« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2011, 06:48:22 pm »

Ok back to it.
On a fun note, I just came home to find 9 ventrillo private messages from people who seem to have been waiting for someone to take this issue to task for a while. The emperor has no clothes, we were all just waiting for someone to say it. Thanks for the support guys, we're gonna make them smarten up.


 As for those individuals who still (surprisingly Roll Eyes) don't want greater accountability and transparency to come to the way the balance team works (for some strange reason).....Let's start from the beginning:

On The Issue of 'Wah wah it's unreasonable for us to have to put so much effort into balancing when it seems so much easier to us to just make it up as we go along without any checks and balances'

1. If your a community player who can't commit to playing the units you are responsible for nerfing/buffing, do the mod a favour and get yourself off our balance team immediately. You're not helping the player base, and you are not helping yourself by letting your laziness and irresponsibility run rampant.

2. For an active player, 8 games a week is very manageable. That is enough to vote on multiple issues. If you can't meet this level of activity, then again do us all a favour and again remove yourself from the team. There are multitudes of people more qualified than the player element of the balance team who easily meet this amount and would have no problem playing any doctrine in question. When they eventually could no longer maintain this pace, they could then remove themselves to make room for newer, fresher, more active voices. This would keep the balance team fresh, motivated, and most of all on task.

That some people seem so opposed to the idea that they should actually have the requisite level of experience to qualify them to vote on something is just proof of how woefully unqualified they are in the first place.

3. The Balance Team right now does not function no matter how much you say it does.

Over the past month, over 60% of the team has been largely AWOL by their own admission and the first-hand testimony of one of the lead dev/mods on the team. Despite this, changes are still being made on a large scale. Further compounding this issue is the fact that 90% of the team has never used some of the units in question in this current metagame. This is what you call a broken system.

4. Greater Accountability will Take More Time and Effort, But Will Pay For Itself Ten Times Over In Improved Quality for the Mod

Speaks for itself.

These are so painfully logical that reading people try to argue them with things like 'dur, that would be too much work' and 'dur, we shouldn't try anything because we (the ones who are the most threatened by change in the first place) don't see a problem'. Is this the best reason we have to ignore these blatant holes in the integrity of this system?

Quote from: Smokaz link=topic=18007.msg313398#msg313398 date=1296483700
Can you name someone you would think would be fitting for this job, wind? That's what it all boils down to isnt it?

I hope they exist, at least for the sake of argument

Absolutely.

 A proper member of the balance team would fit the following criteria:

1) Regularily plays all four armies during each war.

-This will mean no more of this 'I used that doctrine 14 months ago so therefore I am still qualified to say it needs to be nerfed/buffed in this current metagame' bullshit. It's absolute and utter nonsense and if I hear one more unqualified balance team member use it I'm going to swear it's groundhog day.

2) Is known throughout the community as a good player, but more importantly as a good loser

A) If someone is a bad loser, such as yourself, they are not qualified to be a balance team member. Why? Simply because they hate losing. They are going to pull all kinds of shenanigans to make sure they are on the winning team, and when their plan somehow backfires they are going to start looking for excuses. Their teammates let them down, the enemy was using a cheap strategy, or a unit is overpowered. The second this kind of person loses, they might even say in the game 'Say goodbye to that strat, im going to make sure it gets nerfed as soon as I get back to the balance team forum'. They will be prone to post-loss balance threads that masquerade as legitimate concerns. They will also rarely if ever vote to nerf the units they love, while will pursue the units they never play with a vehement passion. This person is a very, very unqualified person to be on the balance team.

B) A good loser, on the other hand, is a good balancer because they are in the game for the challenge and for the experience. They will not always pick the most overpowered doctrines or units, and will try playing with something other than their two favorite armies EVERY SINGLE GAME and in EVERY SINGLE WAR. We have people on our balance team right now who almost ONLY play Wehr and Americans and who I don't think I've ever seen play Brits. It is inexcusable that they are on the balance team. It is absolutely embarassingly inexcusable.

3) Understands that they are inevitably, as players in the mod who are nevertheless trying to win, going to be biased

A player with a half-decent sense of self-awareness (something the current balance team player-members are completely absent of) is going to know that there is an ever present danger of letting their bias cloud their judgement. To that end they will be very cautious about voting to nerf units they never play, and because of that they will make every effort to make sure they get that critical experience before they vote. Or, they simply wont vote at all. These people know that fucking with other people's armies should be done with extreme caution and meticulous patience, and therefore want to make sure they have as much credibility as possible before they assist in that process. This is so that when the pendelum swings back the other way, they can clearly and unequivocally demonstrate their qualifications to do so.

4) Is Active, and if is unable to continue doing so, removes themselves from the team

Most important than anything else, is activity. As long as the Balance team works on a vote basis, then it is simply unacceptable to have periods of time when major changes to units are being made and up to 60-70% of the team (including the majority of its dev/mod team members) are absent.

Also, if there is someone on the balance team who is unable or unwilling to meet the simple requirements of the first post in this thread, then they simply shouldn't be a balance team member. A balance team member who is a player and not a dev/mod should be getting at least 6 games in a week. That is enough to vote on 2-3 issues a week. Yes it means they don't get to farm out their favorite doctrines all the time, but that isn't the point of being on the balance team anyways.


 These are the criteria that should be the MINIMUM requirements for any balance member. And if your wondering, no I don't believe I meet these criteria. I don't have the abillity to meet the bare minimum activity requirements that a good balance member would need in order to do their job properly.

There are, however, people in this mod who can meet all of these criteria. You just aren't one of them by a long shot.



2) From your post it is clear you assume I'm a balance team member(first time you accidentally point fingers like that, isn't it?).

Truth #1: I have no need to assume anything when it comes to the balance team. I have been given full disclosure on who they are, and how they operate. This is knowledge every person in EiR should be entitled to have, but for some reason they are not. Not my call to make.

Truth #2: I'm not allowed to name the people on the balance team, or to say how utterly hilarious the choice of 'community players' who are on it are by name. I can only make generalized statements without disclosing identities. I had to make that agreement in order to make this thread.

-Wind
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 07:06:33 pm by TheWindCriesMary » Logged

Vermillion Hawk: Do you ever make a post that doesnt make you come across as an extreme douchebag?

Just sayin'
Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
*
Posts: 18378


« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2011, 07:04:49 pm »

You forgot 5. Is a teamplayer and can come to compromises, which is something a lot of the people in the old Balance Advisory forum weren't. One of the most important aspects of being on the balance team actually, balance teams don't need egos.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 07:12:16 pm by Unkn0wn » Logged
TheWindCriesMary Offline
The Ethics Police
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2630


« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2011, 07:09:52 pm »

You forgot 5. Is a teamplayer and can come to compromises, which is something a lot of the people in the old Balance Advisory forum weren't. One of the most important aspects of being on the balance team actually, balance teams don't need egos.

That is an important one as well. It is why the old balance advisory forum didn't work either, and why I am not a good candidate to be on the balance team as I explicitly said earlier.

That doesn't change the fact that the current balance team playermembers are an absolute joke, or that the system has deeply troubling integrity issues that need to be resolved.

Balance teams don't need egos, but they need people who are half decently qualified to be balance team members. Right now you have three players in particular who aren't skilled, active, or diverse enough in their chosen companies/armies to make good balance members. They are fine people, and some of them do amazing things for this mod and are really nice guys, but that is irellevant when making a balance team. A balance team position is not a reward for anything but one's abillity to help balance the mod responsibly and effectively.


-Wind
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 07:13:45 pm by TheWindCriesMary » Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

TinyPortal v1.0 beta 4 © Bloc
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.9 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.09 seconds with 35 queries.