Proposed: A Few Simple Rules To Ensure Balancing Integrity

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[Unkn0wn]

Also

3. The Balance Team right now does not function no matter how much you say it does.

You don't judge the balance team's functioning by its members activity, or the methods they use, you judge it by the balance they deliver. And that's ultimately what it comes down.

[TheWindCriesMary]

You don't judge the balance team's functioning by its members activity, or the methods they use, you judge it by the balance they deliver.

The ends justify the means - a dangerous argument in the first place, but also notwithstanding the fact that the delivered balance has been hasty, poorly conceived, and sloppily done in the past month (and beyond, but especially this past month). It has been sloppy and rushed because the minimum amount of voices required to make it balanced have simply not been given the chance to chime in. If 60% of your balance team is AWOL, you don't forge on ahead with a band of unqualified baboons.  Instead you wait for balance that is methodical and thoroughly vetted. People are angry about it, because they make an investment in time when they play this mod. Some of us have donated a lot of money as well (not as much as Tank, but a lot over a period of time). You can't just brazenly mess with that investment and not expect them to want more transparency.

-Wind

[Mysthalin]

I'm personally intruigued by the changes you find ever so abhorably and fundamentally wrong that were done in this past month that completely broke EiRR balance, as you keep claiming. Of course, other than the terrible, terrible nerf to Churchil Crocs that was clearly not in any way deserved or waranted, because they're so much worse than any tank to have hit the fields of Abeville.


Oh, and you didn't answer Smokaz question :

Who, exactly, fits all the criteria you put down?

[EIRRMod]

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

[brn4meplz]

Don't you know your not supposed to use your name on the internet?
You might as well give them your drivers license with a picture like that

[Killer344]

Everything looks nice and dandy on paper, but we don't have the luxury of "unlimited resources" as you blindly assume.

The quality of the "Balance" the game ultimately gets, comes from our capacity to implement those changes (Coding Department).

When you have a lot of people around to get it done, sure you can take more time to test it thoroughly before implementing it. But when you barely have one half AWOL guy, there's not much you can do; you either get stuff done or let development get stalled because the probabilities of making a wrong decision (that can be reverted anytime later) are higher.

Now, I'm going to answer you the obvious questions to save you the hassle:


Get more coders?

Yeah... it sounds so easy as well, but the community has proven several times (four that I can remember at the moment at least) it can't be trusted just like that. One of those members is still banned today.


Use test accounts to save time like you smartly said!

We did use them, they did have a good effect on the final decisions, but ultimately the community itself shut it down; because being able to use a maxed account without playing 40 games was unfair for the ones who had to work hard to get there.


Changing the balance team members/rules won't solve the issue, it would be just a temporary band aid (if we are even able to get those utopic rules to work).

This community needs to be less prone to blindly follow idols who believe they speak the only truth, and be a bit more self-critical.

[Spartan_Marine88]

rule number 1

nothing is simple when it comes to balancing

[TheWindCriesMary]

completely broke EiRR balance,

Shoddy, sloppy balancing with a lack of transparency and accountabillity = completely broke EiRR balance.

Thank you Myst, for demonstrating for the class a textbook definition of scarecrowing someone's argument. In other words, redefining and taking someone's words to the extreme in order to make their argument seem sensationalist and absurd.

Put on your debate 101 hat before coming in here with those kind of shenanigans.

Oh, and you didn't answer Smokaz question :

Who, exactly, fits all the criteria you put down?

The criteria:

Must be, at minimum, a decently good player who wouldn't vehemently oppose the idea of having to play an army and a unit before voting to nerf or buff it, and who would not vote in a matter that had to do with a unit they don't use should they not wish to do the former. A player with the humility and decency to know when they are no longer capable of fulfilling their duties, and would have no trouble stepping down to let more active people take their place.

Candidates:

Heartmann (I've seen him extensively play every army but UK, and I've had him expressly tell me he would play any unit from any army neccesary before voting to nerf it. Why? Because he isn't obsessed with winning, and he knows that when you take on the mantle of a balance member you have to take on extra responsibility to do your job right. Learn from guys like him.)
Sean Connery (Same as above)
Spinn
3rd Condor
Demon
Mgallun

I came up with this list right away and I didn't even have to think about it. In 30 seconds we've now got a few people whoThat's more than enough people to immediately replace the current lineup of balance members - all of which have made it abundantly clear that they feel themselves above the need to actually have some experience with what they presume to discuss and vote on.

Let the axe fly and put in some balance members who are going to do the job right and without some delusion of power and influence.

-Wind

*Keep in mind that I have not asked any of these people if they even would want to be balance team members. They were just a small handful of the dozens of people who could do this job without getting a stick up their arse because they don't get to do whatever they want without having to do any legwork to qualify themselves. That, more than anything else, is the best quality they each possess.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Candidates:

Heartmann (I've seen him extensively play every army but UK, and I've had him expressly tell me he would play any unit from any army neccesary before voting to nerf it. Why? Because he isn't obsessed with winning, and he knows that when you take on the mantle of a balance member you have to take on extra responsibility to do your job right. Learn from guys like him.)
Sean Connery (Same as above)
Spinn
3rd Condor
Demon
Mgallun

You know what, tbh i was looking for things to say about that list, but tbh its a pretty good one, all are team players and mostly know what they are talking about, any areas they are weak in is covered by someone else in that list.

And unlike the current balance team they would have the balls to come out and say what they nerfed and why, and if challanged be around to prove it

(if its offered take the job guys)

[BigDick]

you should add rocksitter to that list to tbh 

[TheWindCriesMary]

Everything looks nice and dandy on paper, but we don't have the luxury of "unlimited resources" as you blindly assume.

 This is a perfectly true point, except for the part that 'unlimited resources' would be required to implement the changes suggested herein.

In fact, you already have all the resources you need - they just aren't being used.

If you go by the balance team you have now, then yes, you do not have the resources needed to implement a proper system. You have notoriously poor attendance from your dev/mods due to their lives etc. That is to be expected. Lives are important. However, what is holding you back here is not that they have lives, but that you haven't shifted the balance positions to players who ARE currently active. People who could easily step in while these others are off managing their lives. Most of the devs/mods don't even play much at all anymore, so it's not really a big loss that they arent around to comment on balance.

 Also, you have 3 player members of the team who are telling you they don't have the desire, time, or neccesity to test the units in the fashion that good balance would require. One response to this is to say 'oh well, we can't do it because our team doesn't want to'. Another response is to say 'Don't want to do the job properly? Too bad for you, you're off the team. We have dozens of community members who would leap at the chance to help out with balancing by playing games in the process'.

Instead you have lazy, self-serving guys who think they are entitled to speak on behalf of every unit regardless of their lack of experience with it. And you wonder why people feel the balance system needs work...

If you have guys going awol all the time, you get new guys. When those guys can't be active anymore, you get new ones again. EIR has a revolving door of new and old players whose activity perks up at different times of the year. If you have the will to assemble an active, qualified, eager to do the job right team, you will get one.

Get more coders?

Yeah... it sounds so easy as well, but the community has proven several times (four that I can remember at the moment at least) it can't be trusted just like that. One of those members is still banned today.

You don't need more coders. In fact, a slower and more rigorous balancing process would actually put LESS strain on the few coders you currently have. Right now the balance team defends their lackadaisacal approach with the self-propagating myth that things need to be done fast and loose all the time. The fact of the matter is, it's fast and loose balancing that makes the mod swing like a pendelum.

If the mod team had to go through a more rigorous process to balance things, they would come in smaller increments that would be less drastically meta-gamechanging. This would result in a decreased need for 'emergency fixes'.

Use test accounts to save time like you smartly said!

We did use them, they did have a good effect on the final decisions, but ultimately the community itself shut it down; because being able to use a maxed account without playing 40 games was unfair for the ones who had to work hard to get there.

True: The community got angry because certain people were making themselves smurf rank 9 accounts out of thin air for no other purpose than to bypass the grind and try any army they wanted.

False: The community got angry because balance team members and devs had the abillity to make accounts in order to test units and abillities responsibly and fairly.


 If those test accounts had been used properly, transparently, and not horribly abused the community would have had no problem. Just because a bunch of power-abusing guys got drunk off their abillity doesn't mean it can be used as a reason not to implement a responsible balance testing system.

-Wind

[3rdCondor]

Serious post:

I'm not the kind of guy that would want to take on a responsibility of being a part of a 'balance team.' I see myself in a position where I'm not an amazing player, but I'm decent in skill and have a good amount of experience in every faction except for PE. Guys like me can give useful feedback, (which I have on some posts "defensive positions" and "battle hardened") but should really be behind the scenes among everyone else. Basically what I am saying is that I wouldn't want to be a part of a balance team, but if Burn, EIRMOD, Killer, or anyone else wanted an opinion on some tier 4 ability or unit unlock, they could ask for my advice... if they wanted it. Is that helping with balance? Sure, but it's not dedicating someone like me to an assignment in which I'd actually have to pay attention every battle to balance issues.

I remember taking Chemistry in High School and loathing the thought of memorizing the periodic table (which every class had to do), but my professor didn't give us an exam over it. He said that we wouldn't need to because we would "accidentally memorize it." ... he was right. I really just accidentally notice balance issues and post them on the threads if I know that it's not because I sucked, or that I was playing against someone who intentionally spams the exact counter to something I might be spamming.

EDIT: thanks for considering me Wind. It's nice to be considered

[cloud234]

Heartmann (I've seen him extensively play every army but UK, and I've had him expressly tell me he would play any unit from any army neccesary before voting to nerf it. Why? Because he isn't obsessed with winning, and he knows that when you take on the mantle of a balance member you have to take on extra responsibility to do your job right. Learn from guys like him.)
Sean Connery (Same as above)
Spinn
3rd Condor
Demon
Mgallun

So.... what balance threads have they started and fought for? What's their history in the past 30 days? A quick look only shows spinn starting a thread on Veterancy and even then... its a little weird why that needs balancing when the original decision was to equalise infantry vet etc.

[spinn72]

So.... what balance threads have they started and fought for? What's their history in the past 30 days? A quick look only shows spinn starting a thread on Veterancy and even then... its a little weird why that needs balancing when the original decision was to equalise infantry vet etc.

If it was all about starting and ending balance threads, the loudest and angriest members of the community would be on our balance team and they'd be making massive changes! I'm a big forum troll, guaranteed I stay up to date with every thread and i'll make my suggestions in game, but atm I see no point debating anything on the forums as action isn't happening, and most players post out of rage from being wtfpwned by some ability. If threads were well written and thought out, i'd bother giving my two cents. I'm guessing the current BA team would agree.

About that thread I made on veterancy, you'll note it states that I wanted to know other members' thoughts on the issue, and presented an opinion.

It's more the fact that we play every faction and every doctrine and play an extensive amount of games with different company builds. I thank you for your suggestion Wind, but unfortunately i'll be leaving the mod within the month as it's become too addictive for me, and i'm wasting too much time playing it, so on that basis I doubt i'd be any good as a balance advisor =p.

It really wouldn't hurt to have some fresh blood on the balance team though, new people to listen to opinions, new ideas etc. Your criteria for balance members is good though Wind, no 'changes' need to be made to the balance team, adding members wouldn't hurt though!

- Enkk

[TheWindCriesMary]

As much as I think they are sorely needed, I'm fine with no changes being made to the balance team members themselves as long as these guidelines or something like them are put in place.The whole point of these guidelines is that even someone who isn't really qualified to be on the balance team (aka pretty much all of them) would be curtailed into practices that would all but mitigate their inherrent biases and lack of required experience.

If they resent the notion that they should have to play with what they proport to speak knowledgeable about, which all of them have, then that is just evidence as to why they shouldn't be on the balance team on the first place.

Man up or ship out.

-Wind

[Smokaz]

You can't "stop" people from being awol. You can't magically replace a coder every week because it seems convenient and just! This is some of the most narrow minded, immature idealism you have ever pouted out wind. I can't believe the fail of it all, this all started with you believing that some change was rash or bad, and then you extrapolate this rashness or poor decision to everything that's been done by one group of people.

You have nothing at all in terms of a argument. You claim balance has been sloppy or bad, yet you fail to point out a consequential string of erratic changes or a direction which is poor that has been changed along the lines of.

[BigDick]

A proper member of the balance team would fit the following criteria:

1) Regularily plays all four armies during each war.

-This will mean no more of this 'I used that doctrine 14 months ago so therefore I am still qualified to say it needs to be nerfed/buffed in this current metagame' bullshit. It's absolute and utter nonsense and if I hear one more unqualified balance team member use it I'm going to swear it's groundhog day.

2) Is known throughout the community as a good player, but more importantly as a good loser

A) If someone is a bad loser, such as yourself, they are not qualified to be a balance team member. Why? Simply because they hate losing. They are going to pull all kinds of shenanigans to make sure they are on the winning team, and when their plan somehow backfires they are going to start looking for excuses. Their teammates let them down, the enemy was using a cheap strategy, or a unit is overpowered. The second this kind of person loses, they might even say in the game 'Say goodbye to that strat, im going to make sure it gets nerfed as soon as I get back to the balance team forum'. They will be prone to post-loss balance threads that masquerade as legitimate concerns. They will also rarely if ever vote to nerf the units they love, while will pursue the units they never play with a vehement passion. This person is a very, very unqualified person to be on the balance team.

B) A good loser, on the other hand, is a good balancer because they are in the game for the challenge and for the experience. They will not always pick the most overpowered doctrines or units, and will try playing with something other than their two favorite armies EVERY SINGLE GAME and in EVERY SINGLE WAR. We have people on our balance team right now who almost ONLY play Wehr and Americans and who I don't think I've ever seen play Brits. It is inexcusable that they are on the balance team. It is absolutely embarassingly inexcusable.

3) Understands that they are inevitably, as players in the mod who are nevertheless trying to win, going to be biased

A player with a half-decent sense of self-awareness (something the current balance team player-members are completely absent of) is going to know that there is an ever present danger of letting their bias cloud their judgement. To that end they will be very cautious about voting to nerf units they never play, and because of that they will make every effort to make sure they get that critical experience before they vote. Or, they simply wont vote at all. These people know that fucking with other people's armies should be done with extreme caution and meticulous patience, and therefore want to make sure they have as much credibility as possible before they assist in that process. This is so that when the pendelum swings back the other way, they can clearly and unequivocally demonstrate their qualifications to do so.

4) Is Active, and if is unable to continue doing so, removes themselves from the team

Most important than anything else, is activity. As long as the Balance team works on a vote basis, then it is simply unacceptable to have periods of time when major changes to units are being made and up to 60-70% of the team (including the majority of its dev/mod team members) are absent.

Also, if there is someone on the balance team who is unable or unwilling to meet the simple requirements of the first post in this thread, then they simply shouldn't be a balance team member. A balance team member who is a player and not a dev/mod should be getting at least 6 games in a week. That is enough to vote on 2-3 issues a week. Yes it means they don't get to farm out their favorite doctrines all the time, but that isn't the point of being on the balance team anyways.


 These are the criteria that should be the MINIMUM requirements for any balance member.



Candidates:

Heartmann (I've seen him extensively play every army but UK, and I've had him expressly tell me he would play any unit from any army neccesary before voting to nerf it. Why? Because he isn't obsessed with winning, and he knows that when you take on the mantle of a balance member you have to take on extra responsibility to do your job right. Learn from guys like him.)
Sean Connery (Same as above)
Spinn
3rd Condor
Demon
Mgallun

you mr. jimi hendrix has so many contradictions and flaws in this thread tbh

let me pick some of your candidates (they should not take it personal) and look at your criterias


1. Sean Connery:

- he completely fails your criteria 2. he abuses the shit out of whatever is abuseable and broken runs gimmick only companies and spams the crap out of it
furthermore he mostly stacks in the spam and abuse gimmick fag trio


2. 3dCondor

- can't say that much about him as i can't remember to have any huge efforts when fighting him and he says himself that he wouldn't fit your criteria 2 as well

3. Mgallun

- everyone who ever played with or against mgallun (no personally offense  ) knows he sucks in competitive gameplay
that doesn't mean he can't have fun in this mod and fails point 2 again
- additional he fails your criteria 1 since he plays 99% of times us

4. Heartman

- probably one of the best fitting people in your list but even he could have some trouble with criteria 2 because he like to run very flat companies (at least as PE) hint -> spaming fallschirmjäger with broken medkits and as many marders as he can get.... (not saying thats it wasnt smart to do so just saying he is fitting borderlined into your criteria 2)

[Unkn0wn]

Let's not turn this thread into something personal, shall we?

[smurfORnot]

spaming fallschirmjäger with broken medkits and as many marders as he can get....

and what is bad with spaming marders,falls eat all mun,so why would anyone use 50mm when u can get better marder,or should his at be panthers?

[sheffer]

im good looser, im good looser, pick me!