[PE] PzGren Changes

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[AmPM]

My single biggest question...

Why the fuck is Unknown still on the dev team?

[kwiatekkek]

Like Mysth pointed out, the change was largely reverted because of how broken it made tommies. PE really didn't have a share in the 'revert' you are referring to. They were just reverted along with it, when really there was no good argument for that.

Hence why it was decided, unanimously (that's 10 people mind you), to adopt the PE change again.

ok  and   now its  not the  same ?
it  wont  make  tommies  broken?

[EliteGren]

Huh? Tommies didn't get changed at all.

[kwiatekkek]

thats  exactly my  point .

[EliteGren]

How would they be broken all of the sudden? Are they broken in vCoH? They were broken when they had infantry armour 2 years ago

[lionel23]

I think the big issue now is that tommy's (if you are comparing its fine on tommies and not on pzgrens) are a 5 man squad that isn't fighting a BAR riflemen squad as their common enemy.

Pzgrens are 4-man squads who will regularly go against BAR riflemen...

[cloud234]

Changing Inf_Soldier armour to Inf armour is not a buff. If anything else, it makes it weaker against all other weapons, easier to suppress and what not.

If you so insist I will get a crunch out on the effect of your actions against enemy infantry.

Can someone give me the HP for the PzGrens pre-change? I will put up a small table and write the changes in effectiveness of areas like damage & suppression.

[EliteGren]

I think it was 55 per soldier. It was so low that even the Airborne Sniper one shoted them

[sgMisten]

Like Mysth pointed out, the change was largely reverted because of how broken it made tommies. PE really didn't have a share in the 'revert' you are referring to. They were just reverted along with it, when really there was no good argument for that.

Hence why it was decided, unanimously (that's 10 people mind you), to adopt the PE change again.

So could you state clearly for those not in the know, what is the rationale for changing PZG's armour type again? Doesn't matter how many people decided it to be so, but what's the reason. People are clearly unhappy, since the change makes no clear sense - but giving reasons to the playerbase goes a long way.

[AmPM]

Especially, since as balance changes have shown, those 10 people are largely incompetent.

[spinn72]

Especially, since as balance changes have shown, those 10 people are largely incompetent.

Or they're EliteGren, and they're ridiculously overcompetent, even with PE :0

[sheffer]

perhaps it makes sense to leave pzgrens and tankBuster as they are now, but roll back assault grenadiers? (armor and hp)

[DarkSoldierX]

or roll them all back including population and cost because we all know they arnt worth their cost, even if they did has sprint at vet 0.

[cloud234]

First of all I like to give thanks to

I think it was 55 per soldier. It was so low that even the Airborne Sniper one shoted them

avoid bars at all costs by your pe grens.

Bars vs Infantry Soldier (old pegrens)
acc 0.75
dmg 0.4

Bars vs Infantry (new pegrens)
acc 1
dmg 0.75

US HMG vs Infantry Soldier (old pegrens)
acc 0.75
dmg 0.75

US HMG vs Infantry (new pegrens)
acc 1
dmg 1

CW tommy brens vs Infantry Soldier (old pegrens)
acc 0.75
dmg 0.5

CW tommy brens vs Infantry Soldier (old pegrens)
acc 1
dmg 0.75

Now Pe cant just rush any inf based AI, more WH like playstyle needed.

Without their information (and some COH Stats) the following stat table is not possible.



The Summary of the results:

How to Intepret the Figures
The calculations were based on target modifier tables. I opted not to use "DPS" calculation (etc.) because it would overcomplicate. I hoped by using only "Accuracy" and "Damage" modifiers could validate the argument with a fast simple calculation.

Please note that it is a general gauge. For those economics/mathematics inclined, I recommend intepreting the "Percentage Change" method as it provides a far fairer appreciation of the matter.

An "Improvement" refers to the weapon becoming MORE EFFECTIVE against PzGrens.
An "Impairment" refers to the weapon becoming LESS EFFECTIVE against PzGrens.

Notable Findings

1. Most weapons across the board for US are magnified in improvement against the PzGrens, despite the increase in HP to compensate.

2. The BARs (100% IMPROVEMENT!!!!), Quads (54%), Bren (54%) & Sten (54%) are the most effective weapons at killing PzGrens.

3. Normal Rifles are now MORE EFFECTIVE (20%) against PzGrens while normal Tommies are nerfed just marginally (-10%).

Closing Thoughts
Tank weapons have not yet being factored in. I have placed in only infantry weapons. If you desire, simply look up the target table and put in the figures. The formulas have been pre calculated and will churn it out for you.

Considering that they have been increased in price and popcap as well. This make the nerf even more hard felt.

Please feel free to cite inaccuracies, biasness, or inappropriateness in values or comparisons made to ensure the accuracy of this crunch ^^

[Groundfire]

You fail to provide damage comparisons.

Like how Bars went from doing 2.8 dmg a shot to 5.25.

Dont quote me on this b/c im not going to do the RoF calculations, but there was only a slight margin of improvement in having BARs over having Garands. It was a muni sink for the most part.

[cloud234]

I decided to do a crunch with Tank Guns to see the results (COH Stats) and have attached it as usual.

Interestingly, it shows a drop in performance of tank guns of about 34% of most american tank guns and 17% on the [CW]Cromwell against PzGrens.

I think, this would support the Infantry + ATG Spam tactic against the PE even more as tanks are reduced in effectiveness.

The considerations for an INF + ATG spam army would be to nullify indirect fire weapons (Mortar HT, Hummel) and to due to Inf HTs which can speed in and out rapidly to clear out key units. P4 IST with dual T3s will still be a major threat to any infantry heavy army. The british firefly seems apt as an excellent counter in combination with American ATGs to protect the firefly if needed.

[Mysthalin]

Groundfire.. BARs were still better than Garands versus Pzgrens.

You're just quoting the damage numbers completely out of context.

[Groundfire]

Groundfire.. BARs were still better than Garands versus Pzgrens.

You're just quoting the damage numbers completely out of context.

I said they were better, just not by much.

Dont quote me on this b/c im not going to do the RoF calculations, but there was only a slight margin of improvement in having BARs over having Garands. It was a muni sink for the most part.

See, there I said it. Still no doubt that it was an 80 munition sink

[cloud234]

Like how Bars went from doing 2.8 dmg a shot to 5.25.

It is factored into the calculations actually. BAR damage increased by 87.5% and accuracy by 33.33% to an overall increase of 150% increase in DPS. Please refer to the table and please refer to "How to Intepret the figures"

EDIT: If you multiply 2.8 by 1.875 you get your requested figure of 5.25. Its mentioned indirectly.

Dont quote me on this b/c im not going to do the RoF calculations, but there was only a slight margin of improvement in having BARs over having Garands. It was a muni sink for the most part.

I didn't calculate increase in effectiveness of a BAR vs Rifle Squad but I'll do that for u now.

Rifle squad = 21.21% improvement. Simple.

BAR Squad = 21.21%/6*4 + 104.55%/6*2
Which is equal to a weighted value of 53.70% Improvement

I think that's pretty good for 80 munitions with the ability to suppress.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

so you guys are gonna keep the change eh?

well then fuck PE due to now thir only mainline inf gets get raped by a single barsquad.