Doctrine Unlock Suggestions (v1.6): With Changelog

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[Unkn0wn]

Relax people, they're just suggestions. Everyone is entitled to make suggestions. No need to get all up in arms because you disagree. (Or because people disagree with your suggestions)

[TheVolskinator]

Lionel, did you read the description, or compare the stats to those of other units? For an LV, this thing is slow. It also has a stuart 37mm, its not going to be raping said KT, even if it tries to rear-shot it. Guess what, Ive gone into the game and TRIED THIS IN THE FIELD. The P4 armor adds a chance to blunt PaK shells and on occasion StuG shots, and not much else. Its penalized versus handheld AT; its not going to 1-hit-crit the Rhino, but shrecks and fausts would have a field day against this unit if you just rushed it in trying to crush them. Ive also lowered it;s health to 350 and the Vet3 +25 HP will bring it to 375; with the current XP needs thats going to be damn rare to come across. Why am I not using stuart armor? Its complete and utter shit and wouldnt do a damn thing for what Ive tried to make an IST (Infantry Support Tank, general term pplz, not the PIV IST), wheras the vCoH stuart was an LV hunter and rapid recon unit--impossible or nearly so with this one as it has a standard sight range and, as stated, is pretty slow for an LV. Yeah its cheap, its a stuart. Remember how shit they were/are compared to the(almost equally crappy) Greyhound? yeeesh...

EDIT: To quiet lionel's bitching about it being too cheap, its now 295 MP and 95 FU; 5 and 80something off of the M10.

[Mister Schmidt]

Soooo, uhh.... Where are my trenchclearers?

[TheVolskinator]

You're asking for feedback on what was a clearly OP and overpowered unit,

trololol...redundancy ;/)

[TheVolskinator]

WIP Schmidt, WIP. (Careful, Ill probably make them glaringly OP theyd need the cost doubled and have rec. acc. penalties )

[Mister Schmidt]

You can't give a unit received accuracy penalties from the get go anyway, that's what smoke is for ;\D

Also, go here http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?action=search and tell me what you think.

[TheVolskinator]

BUMP! Read first post. Read the entire document too pl0x, many, many changes.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

i am quite sure that those pics were banned.

[Mister Schmidt]

Shh. It's not like Volskinator minds

[JustCarnage]

In regard to the HMG Fire Support Team, this thing is broken. You get a 5 man MG team that is more effective than the standard US MG in mid to close range combat, has nearly double the health and deploys faster than the standard. With veterancy, there is no point in using the other. Its even better in cost. Five manpower and 5 munitions less. I don't see why anyone wouldnt pay 25 munitions for regular reload speed. From my understanding it has a faster set up time than the standard. Who needs rifles when you can get a rifle squad with an MG.

[TheVolskinator]

Note the lack of suppression. Its dealing less damage (-1 min/max) and is meant to be more mobile then the standard MG(s). It purposely has 5 guys, like I said, its a cross between an MG team and a basic inf squad. Ill boost the cost but I set out to make an MG that could actually keep up with other squads in mobile attacks. My concept was trading accuracy, dmg, and suppression for higher HP and mobility. Taking into account your suggestion, hows +45 MP and +25 MU sound? (btw, note how infuriatingly long a reload the quad has. Thats how long this'd be 'hurrrrrr' sitting there picking its ass. 5 shots is like an engie grease gun burst, and a 1 second delay between bursts is ~ what standard MGs have AFAIK (lower overall RoF).)

[lionel23]

Okay, upon viewing the updates, my take on these new units....

Rhino Stuart - Still a stupid unit, no offense.  It is a crush-human and heavy crushing greyhound.  You did not up the price enough to reflect that.  It fulfills a role better than the useless short range croc by sheer will of speed and is underpriced in terms of POP also.  It is able to fight vehicles and infantry, still has WP letting you mass immobilize vehicles which needs to be removed. Vet 3 stug armor is stupid, as the thing will get one-shotted by fausts.  Stop using damn Axis armor tables and stick with Allied tables.  The Slugger has the same thing with stug armor and got blown away instantly by fausts before it was changed to an allied equivalent armor.

Anti-Tank Team - +15 sticky range??  A unit that can cloak AND throw a sticky bomb across the screen, are you insane?  In addition to having bazookas (which suck usually unless its a nice flanking shot on heavy tanks) and with your ambush bonus you're alpha striking.

HMG Spport Team - Okay... its a super cheap HMG that now has more staying power than a normal HMG team with FIVE guys.  Even with the long reload and suppression reduction, I would make an entire army out of this over the riflemen for the sheer fact you're gaining a significant power increase and not really losing anything.  Replacing a single M1 garand and going down just 1 guy to get an HMG is insane (massive DPS increase).  Also you give it FREE ap bursts, when the normal HMG has to pay for it, and whatever this ball ammo ability you give it and don't describe.

Heavy Airborne - Again, no.  350 MP and has 4 SMGs..  for free?  Do you not have any idea what resources are for?  Do you not understand why upgrades for infantry are tied to MU?  You need to make the squad MINIMUM cost 180 MU.  Bar upgrade is too powerful too, you can instant pin an entire army with that single bar while raping them with SMGs.  You have grenades AND they can build defenses (engineers and rangers in one? seriously?).  And it doesn't matter if they don't have elite armor as they have the next best thing being airborne armor, which is essentially elite armor while moving.

Heavy Defensive Pioneer - Again, why this redundant unit?  It's a 6 man squad with infantry armor.  They are able to get mines, bunkers... and what's this? Free healing bunkers?  Seriously? And they can build an emplacement 37mm?  That's a new unit, needs to go into company build, not someone else's build menu.  Again, this unit isn't really needed and you're just trying to fold the best of all units into a single versatile squad.  Airborne rangers or KCH Grens and the like.  Stop merging units like that together.

[TheVolskinator]

You again fail to note the fact that I'm still editing the concept. None of the free shit; bunkers etc etc, is 'free', it's unlocked with that doctrine's unlock; Def Pios arent going to be putting up Aid Stations until you buy the T3 unlock. Ill add a note that stickies cant be thrown while cloaked, which I forgot to do so (I still havent posted 1.2, which already includes many of the changes including +1 Pop on the Rhino and additional cost increases (I fail to note how making a LIGHT TANK more expensive then the M10 is balance). Def pios I miscopied the armor type, theyre not going to be lolrape soldier armor PG knockoffs. The 37mm is out then, my mistake for looking outside of the box, per se.

Lionel, no offense, on the Heavy Airborne-- you really are a bit on the ignorant side :|. PE's new slow ability as of 2.602 targets ONE squad and that squad is only SUPPRESSED, not PINNED, for 5 seconds. After that they recover and can do whatever they damn please. I beleive the 82nd AB have a pretty good initial MU cost anyways. I do in fact know what costs are for, but you seem biased that I dont know anything so arguing is pointless  

HMG team--M2 Armor Piecing Ball ammo IS the AP ammo. Says it on the tooltip 'Order the gunner of this MG to load M2 ball ammunition into the MG to penetrate the armor of armored cars and halftracks'. Its not free, thats why it has the damned AP upgrade and then the 'load AP ammo' ability--its the same shit as the standard MG, Im just using the correct names for it, not just 'AP ammo' and 'go pew pew pew with AP ammo'.

[Tymathee]

Volksy, take the majority of units that are in EIR and start there. The thing is, yes EIRR is a mod but it tried to stay close as possible to normal vCoH as possible so there's a simple transition. They also try to make real units, there was no such thing as a Stuart Rhino far as i can tell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Stuart#Variants

Anti Tank team isn't needed because there's doc unlocks for at rifles and zooks, it doesn't fit anywhere.

Fire support team is too cheap although a nice idea, especially since it's one i proposed.

Personally, i'd remove ap rounds all together so it's far, give the team members carbines and it's just a tougher hmg team. axis kinda have something like this with the 4 man on SE.

Meh, 82nd airborne, not needed. just make new doc unlocks for Ab doctrine, a whole 'nother unti isn't needed.

same for heavy pio's, not really needed, plus SE kinda have this with panzer pioneers. They also get way too much.

you allow them to upgrade to a single mp44, get an extra mine than normal pios, AP mines, dual bunkers...why? aid station without a doc unlock, 2 demo charges for 45 muni (one cmdo demo is 60) and the AA emplacement, which makes no sense because all emplacements are build by a separate team.

I love your enthusiasm but you're building units for a different type of mod, they just wouldn't work in EIR.

Always start vanilla and think doc unlocks n stuff, dont just give a whole new unit a bunch of new toys no one else has.

[lionel23]

As Tym elegantly puts what I'm saying, I'm not being biased but a lot of what you're doing isn't needed and doesn't fit into the current mod.  You're creating multiple redundant or fantasy units and are trying to merge many current units into one super powerful unit.

[TheVolskinator]

I thought the 1.2/1.3 whatever i posted said 'Med Bunker - (bla bla bla). Requires T3 Medical Bunker unlock. Yeah they get a crapload of unlocks, they're purpose-focused pioneers. Theyre expensive conjurers of doom forts .

Fire support team costs 320 manpower and 100+ munitions, it's too cheap? What? I gave the rest of them Carbines, and took away the 5th man.

The 'Rhino' was the nickname given to any tank with a Culin Cutter in normandy; it was slang and not an official name coined for production run vehicles. M4A1 sherms, 4A2', 4A3', Stuarts, Cromwells, almost anything with treads + culin cutter was called a 'rhino' tank.

AT team was just an idea to give some sort of bazooka-type weapon to the americans without massive lolblobs of rangers with bazookas or whatever. But yeah, ive just proposed another batch of pointless units ^^. I guess worthless bullshit is a forte of mine xD. You discount my observance and intelligence (or i take it as such), my pride and joy is my rifle-zook infantry company. However, rifles arent tough enough to perform well as good AT infantry, which is why I put up the AT team. Rifles fight inf and throw stickies if they get the chance, they just cant keep any staying power as hard-counter AT infantry.

Close to Vcoh? They had 4man KCH, sniper-shotting grens, mad ass rushing terror ambulances, suppressing snipers, and huge-ass incindiary minefields in vcoh? Boy was I playing it wrong o.o, most of that stuff involves at least some ingenuity which is what I was trying to incorporate here. However, it seems that more or less everyone in EiR is closed to the idea of anything outside of the box, so to speak.

EDIT: Go back and check the attached document! I update the damn thing all the time, always check to see if its v1.X!! I corrected some of the things tym pointed out before he posted! But yeah, if the mods want to erase the thread I dont think anyone would be worse off.

[lionel23]

Wow, a Stuart with PERSHING armor?  Are you friggin serious?  Double flamers with an MP44 and two MP40?  That makes it better than a dang assault flamen squad. AND they come with SPRINT AND FIREUP (based on their vet upgrading it, well actually it's more a downgrade in some ways)? They can throw bundle nades for FREE and build/lay demo charges, mines, PE roadblocks and wire?.

MP wise it's too cheap for a 5 POP unit for 5 guys.  The squad is seriously undervalued.  Min it should be 6 pop and over 380+ MP for such a beastly squad, you've made it too cheap yet again. Though I gotta say, what is their purpose?  Bltiz already has stormtroopers with MP44s and assault nades....

British also don't need a 'super sapper', they got sappers already.  Assault airborne aren't needed still, they got riflemen with BARs and normal airborne with RRs, and the Stuart is still too cheap.  MIN it needs to be the same price as a Sherman or Sherman Croc for a human-crushing weapon that gets... pershing armor...

[Mysthalin]

I like the 350 MP 4x Thompson squad.

That one made my day.

[Mister Schmidt]

I like how you specifically name me in the creation of the Hellspawn of a unit!

lmao although I wish we were allowed units that powerful, it maybe just a tad too tough... Also far too cheap munition wise considering it comes with a flamethrower and 2 shotguns. Quite like the rife nade addition, needs to cost mp too though, bearing in mind it's highly unlikely the unit will be implemented anyways, so you can do whatever you want with it theoretically But thank you for actually designing something remotely tangible, I'll take another look when I'm not zoning out from being in France

Right, 4 grenades for 35(!!!) munitions is ridiculously cheap.
And I genuinely loled at 95 munitions for a riflenade, extra man, democharge, satchel, AND mine detection. Pool also needs to be at 6, minimum.

[TheVolskinator]

The nades come with the 155 MU weapons upgrade, lionel. Read everything carefully, everything named ' ______ Package' combines weapons upgrades, abilities, and throwable weapons into one omni expensive upgrade--you spend your moneys worth to make the unit worthwhile, or use it as is. No weapons only shite so you can get a lolwth unit for a low price. Pershing armor, yeah...church armor blows ass and i dunno anything thats better then crom armor; any suggestions on that would be nice. Yes deary, MP cost it is. Well, 4 nades for 35 MU: suits your 'spam low-cost units for maximum effect' Doctrine xD. 135 MU, 40 MP for ye olde OP omni Highlander's upgrade (like the name? y/n? )

@ Lionel specifically (and btw, thx for real feedback that didnt feel uber hostile, honestly  thx :3), people have been putting 'what if, what if, what if' for a Sturmpioneer unit for quite a while I think, so I kinda copy-pasted Xcalibur's Sturmpionieren Trupp from BKmod into an EiR-ish format. Uhm, to answer your question directly, I validly considered just putting up a flamer upgrade for storms, but I chalked it up as horridly OP as ninja flames are...stupid. Ive played CoHO against infantry camo spam players w. massive ninja flamer blobs. Not fun...... meh, MP40s arent too bad considering you get 2 and they blow on the move, and I made SPios fucking muni hogs for a reason. The sprint vs. Fire Up, isnt FU much much better? Breaks suppression, lets you trololol around and so on. Sprint just sets your supp. threshold to 0 (pop it before you're suppressed and you pretty much cant be until it wears off). Double flamers are lol, Ill knock off the MP44 dude and boost the MU cost by 20 (PM me if you want to talk specific stats, Im game ). The MP cost Im just trying to set to generally the same ~250 for most of my infantry proposals, because Im used to vcoh unit prices; memorizing the EiR costs for balancing comparison is a bitch ^^ sorry for making them too cheap, they are and I totally agree that they need a cost uppage (again, PM me with specific cost ideas pl0x!)

Super Sapper's are Schmidt's idea, complain to him ^^ I just made the stats specific.