ATG prices and other subjects

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[AmPM]

My thoughts.

ATG Price is way too low in Munitions, it doesn't require you to sacrifice anything to use them. Suggest raising 20-30mu for 6pdr/PAK/57mm, increase MP cost as well.

TD cost, mainly M10/M18/Marder price needs to go up. Mostly the M10/M18. I can solo anything besides a Panther or KT with 1 of them for 33% less cost than a medium and no real munitions investment.

Heavy Tanks are too cost effective. Manpower is fine, at most even if you increase it 200mp its just 1 squad of Volks/Rifles, wooo. The issue is that the FU doesn't cripple you for choices. I can still run 2 Tigers/Pershing and a P4/Sherman + bikes with T3 Fuel upgrade. New price should make me unable to run that medium tank. KT is fine as is though. Possibly need to look at Churchill Croc and FF price if these change as well.

G43 pricing and suppression should be brought in line with the BAR. 80mu or so, lowered suppression value, removal of the "Slow" effect.

P4/STuG upgrades, including repair, need to come down. Sherman repair should come down. This would mean a P4 with upgrades would run about 105/110MU, and a Sherman about 90mu with .50 and Repair. This is pretty fair. Sherman 75mm is slightly worse than the P4, but also costs slightly less. Upgun with above upgrades puts it at costing more, but being better. Basically, medium repairs to 35-40mu, Skirts to 35mu.

PFaust should decrease in price to 40-45. SMG's across the board should drop slightly, mostly for Rangers (ewww). Schrek is good as is, Zook is fine, RR might need a tweak.


I think that pretty much covers it.

And yes, I play both sides.

[Smokaz]

What about manpower price, i mean base atgs aren't overperforming vs medium armor without AP rounds, but the manpower price is pretty low considering that if possible it can be healed "repaired" and recrewed a lot of times.

[AmPM]

I noted an increase in MP was probably required too =)

[poyrazthewicked]

spamming is the biggest issue of all...
it is more funny to see different units in the field but we have reserve points then we can buy with oversupply...

if we dont want to see people spamming,

1-we can cancel or decrease reserve points,
2-I dont know if we can do it but we can increase the cost of units while we are trying to buy more(example: if u buy first atg with 380MP and 110MUN second can be 400MP and 120MUN)

-wickY26

[AmPM]

Wicky, that doesn't really work because different Doctrines encourage specific things.

You shouldn't pay more for playing to your theme.

Issue is, spamming does not make your company sacrifice in other areas.

[TheVolskinator]

Issue #1: As an avid infantry player, I can say that the M1 57mm is THE lifeblood of any allied company (aside from Armor spamming goddamn pershings. Lolnoobs). "Running 4-5 ATGs, why the spam etc......." is just retarded. What else do we, as the Americans, have to counter the horde of axis heavy AT and clowncars that get heaved at us every game? (Ergo, 8thRifle and Mal with tiger/dual tiger/etc starts). The Sherman upgun is an interim solution and I frankly run my 3 Shermans with an MG and a repair kit. M10s do the job better but still get eaten alive by pretty much anything in the game aside from freakin Pioneers. M18s? Fuck no, those things cant penetrate cum-soaked tissue from point blank range.

I run Shermans. I love the unit. I run P4s. Its meh in EiR but its not comeplete shite. It could use some tweaking but whatever. The spamming of heavy armor is honestly retarded; Im sick of having to throw my AT pell-mell at a Tiger (after picking away it's support) only to have one more pop out of nowhere to run my ass over.

The G43 Suppression Volley, that is broken shit. On the GR forums I was completely against it being available in the first place, its literally an I win button. With BARs, you pop that button and the squad does next to 0 damage for the next minute or two (I run MGs for suppression anyways). TBFH, I only use SF as an 'oh shit' button when the axis rushes me with a megablob of assault grens and KCH.

[Malgoroth]

You guys are all nuts. Price tweaking won't solve shit. 30 extra munis per ATG? "Oh snap... I have to get rid of a nade. Damn". In fact, it'd probably only exacerbate the problem for certain factions. IE the Wehrmacht. "My ATGs went up in price... and my shrecks are still garbage. Dammit dammit dammit".

Axis heavy tanks? Don't make me lolgasm. The objective shouldn't be to kill the heavy tank outright. You keep the ATGs near your forces or try the infamous ATG creep. You keep sticky rofles handy. Got an M10? That tiger isn't going to stray away from its support at all. You contain that shit like communism. You pick and you poke and you keep it at bay so its impact on the game is negligible. It turns into 16 pop of dead weight. People need to quit acting like heavy tanks are Mechagodzilla's and treat them more like sick cats. Just shoo them away because you don't want to get feline AIDS on you. You have a cat of your own, and you'd just DIE if he got sick because we all know cats are sweet little balls of fluffy evil.

DEVS. Just read my post, then do as I say. problem solved.

[CrazyWR]

Well Mal, you didn't make any suggestions.  Other than to note that heavies are able to be killed.  I didn't say they couldn't be.  I have no problem facing many heavies each game.  However, IMO, heavies should be something to be feared, I shouldn't see one and react with 'meh, I'll just call out 3 atgs now'.  It seems ridiculous that is even possible.  Like others have said, its very easy to have a ton of ATGs and still run plenty of other upgraded units.

As for doctrines, I understand the intent with them now, I just disagree with it.  Doctrines should specialize and buff the units related to them.  If you just want to give out a bunch of smaller buffs, just remove doctrines and use veterancy or one 'doctrine tree' for each faction.  One tree for each of the 3 current doctrines.  It seems silly that you are trying to minimize the buffs by giving out many small buffs to peripheral units rather than focusing on what the important units in each doctrine are.  Why shouldn't luftwaffe get highly effective fallschirmjagers?  AB should get highly effective AB, not buffs to crocodiles or other units.  

As for g43, glad to hear that will be fixed.


EDIT: Oh, and its 2 heavies and 2 medium tanks, not just one, at least

[RikiRude]

I agree with what ampm has said and suggested.

I think schrecks could maybe use some loving from doctrines to be a little better.


also the reason you dont see m18s, is because they suck, i believe they are going to get looked at in the future though.

and medium tank upgrades getting lowered would help a lot.


i think for a successful deployment of changes to be made though, is they need to be made small. so what mal says doesn't really apply too strongly, in the whole oh 30mu is a nade. if tank upgrades were lowered by 5-10mu, heavy tank repairs increased by 10-20mu, and atg upped by similar small amounts and so on, we could say, ok price still needs to be tweaked rather than running into a "oh fuck the price of that is TOTALLY fucked! now we have to wait a month for it to get fixed"


also the thread needs to be split tbh, the whole thing with doctrines is a totally different subject!



right now i think the way the doctrines are set up, RCA, armor, and defensive is set up very well, in the fact that it has T3 selections that are all close to each other which makes it like there are 4x T4s

[Malgoroth]

stuff

You sir... fail at scrolling up  

Wanna fix it? All on map arty pieces need to have a muni cost associated with them. Callies/25s/105s/whatever. Even offmaps. Make it to where getting the artillery isn't as "duh" as it is now and make it something the players will actually have to make sacrifices for. Make the cally also cost (ballpark) 200 munis. That's 2 BARs and a salvo of AP rounds. That's a couple of stickies, That's an ATG and a couple of nades. Or just a plain fuckton of grenades. I'd feel that shit. Picking the arty would be something I had to think about rather than "LOL I GOTZ THE FUEL OK!!!"
The shreck... price decrease. 90 munis for grenadiers. 100 on tank busters. That way it'll actually fit into the only job it's HALF DECENT at fulfilling - which is cover the flanks of tanks and ATGs. Look at the only alternative for wehr... Volks. 50 munis and less manpower and they do the same damn job. AND in a pinch, they can recrew 2 support weapons. Shreck grens can't recrew anything. You spent 120 fucking munitions on that squad. Fuck recrewing an MG. That's a fucking 120 munition MG! That's not even including the cost of a health pack, which if you don't have one on every single gren squad then your doing something painfully wrong. ..or your defensive. But whatever.

[Smokaz]

You DONT wanna buff shreks to make shermans more viable.

[CrazyWR]

my bad, I read that post too, and then forgot about it.  Oops.

[Smokaz]

Its also pretty hard to do anything with to anyways. Pak spam is just less viable than atg spam on maps with diverse terrain. Because theres less optimal recrew infantry, and there's a lot of fast tanks and vehicles from the allies.

[lionel23]

My opinion on this, ATG spam isn't an issue that I see in the current meta game.

I will agree that there needs to be something done for Medium Armor, mainly on the axis side.  Shermans are pretty decent but overall still too MU heavy, while Axis medium tanks are just too much a drain on MU when fighting allies.  The reason being allies always bring in the heaviest things available to fight the always present tiger and KT and Jadg, which gimps medium armor due to overkill (17lbers and AP rounds).

Personally, I find the shrek is a fine weapon, I run 14 squads of shreks to great effect in my Defensive company that is backed up by an 88.  The 88 kills ATGs and heavy tanks while the shreks provide support against M10s or LVs.  If anything, the Shrek probably is slightly overpriced and either needs to come down or have the option to give it to volks (5 man squad with AT weapon).

Fausts... stupid pricing for them.  3 uses for 50 MU... but you'll never be able to get to use them all due to the stupid long delay.  If the delay between shots was like 5 seconds or less, I would actually think it would be a nice deterrant but any allied player knows that after your 2 squads fire faust, he can kill them before they can reload their fausts.

I do agree though that handheld AT generally isn't good enough for the allies (other than RR, which we all know are awesome and piats for shooting over hedges).  Ever since the TR nerf to zooks, I only use zooks to kill unskirted tanks or when there are 3 M10s on the field I'll roll out a zook squad, otherwise I just go for the extra SMGs and rape infantry and rain death/arty down on the enemy as that is all US Inf is really good at.  The counter argument to Tank Reapers not sucking has been stated that its primarily meant for ATGs... which again leads back to your original post that said 'ATG spam is ridiculous'.  US infantry's heaviest AT is the 76mm ATG.  Zooks are no longer feasible to counter armor (as has been stated by the dev team that US inf will never counter tanks as a strength), M10s themselves are too fragile and the M18 has a targetting bug that prioritizes infantry over tanks.

Airborne has RRs, though expensive are pretty rape-tastic.

And then you have Armor, which gets the Pershing and HVAP.. though my Armor Company runs 2 HVAP pershings (3 shot Hezters!), 5-7 ATGs and mass BAR infantry due to lack of other options.  They have no other real infantry to get, and without Vet 2, sticky bombs are really worthless, which leads to most allied companies with no elite infantry to spam the only thing they can: BAR Riflemen.  Also add that BARs recharge when manning weapons, and hence every recrew squad should be given a BAR upgrade to use in a pinch.  What else can you give them?  US Inf is the only one with real options for their infantry but with shitty tanks (sherman/jumbo hold their own) while Armor is well, it's about the tank and shitty infantry lol.

Also to comment on the T4 for US Infantry, it fits well the Sherman buff.  They may not get the kickass sherman buffs that armor get, but they shoot slightly faster to support infantry.  It's not out of place simply because you have FOUR pools.  Just because the doctrine is called US Infantry doesn't mean it can't be allowed to use vehicles XD

[Malgoroth]

God damn you're such a fanboy lionel.

[lionel23]

I'm stating my honest opinion.  When was the last time you seen ANY ranger player actually spam zooks?  Every Ranger player pretty much will have mass SMGs, I run at most 2-3 squads of zooks now and rely on ATGs.  Crazy's original post was complaining why there are too many ATGs, and other than the fragile M10, handheld AT (doctrine specific) and the ubiquitous ATG, what else is there to field to counter heavy tanks?

Maybe if you cool down and just don't shoot down plausible explanations as 'fanboy-ism', you might see that for yourself.

[Malgoroth]

For the same reason you don't see shrecks. Easily kited. Fireup helps, but the exauhstion thing keeps them from truly chasing down vehicles and not ending up dead as a result. They're still only REALLY useful against vehicles that can't hurt them too much back or die quickly anyway. like PE HTs/stugs/etc.

Like I said in earlier posts... why pay munis out the ass for an AT weapon that blows balls compared to other AT weapons? As far as rangers go, they rape ass as AI, and are only so so as AT. Why not max out their SMGs and use them for what they're best at?

[Katusha]

Also, it is unnatural how anyone can just buy heavy tanks, and just keep buying and buying them after losing them. This is what causes the problem. Either super heavy tanks should be reward units when the warmap comes out (you get rewarded for say, winning 5 games in a row, or not losing more than 1 tank for 5 games). You should have to prove yourself worthy of using a heavy tank like a Tiger, by exhibiting skill with a P4. To gain a KT, you need to exhibit skill in using a Panther.

Hell, I'm an axis player, but I gotta say it's weird to see heavy tanks every game, and allies can do nothing but spam ATG's. Heavy tanks should be more rare, but not through pricing, because they're priced pretty well. They should be made rare some other way.

You might say, anyone has the right to play whatever they want, because this mod is for the enjoyment of the user. That is a good point that I cannot disprove, but you gotta admit heavy tanks have just lost their touch of being "rare terror weapons."

[lionel23]

True, but 80 MU is piddly to pay for zooks, so that's where leftover MU goes into when you can't afford the SMG package.

I run mass shreks in all my wehr companies, and have plenty of AI due to Gren Rifles which are pretty decent.  Granted, I'm using either 88s to back up the shreks or I'm using Elite armor to make the squad ungodly against inf while the 4th man covers them from vehicles, but I find shreks to be more useful to spam than zooks in the current meta game.

I'm not an airborne player, but I'm sure the same can be said about them.  They might be the only real US faction that might forgo ATGs for mass RRs due to the platform and armor.  Brits got it best with piats, FF, and the 17lber (which has totally replaced all my 6lbers, heh).

ATG price increase though, I'd be really against.  If ATG prices go up, then tank prices need to go up too otherwise someone will just mass roll out armor and wtf pwn the 1-2 atgs and leave one unable to counter vehicles.  Not really sure what solution can be reached for this, as in my games with Mal and Rifle and Jodomar I really don't see vehicle spam unless it's Mys with an army of 6+ Panzer 2s, to which I will bring out every ATG and zook squad to crush that.  Allies it's just M8s and quads really, and everyone knows you can easily stomp that.

[Tymathee]

I'm stating my honest opinion.  When was the last time you seen ANY ranger player actually spam zooks?  Every Ranger player pretty much will have mass SMGs, I run at most 2-3 squads of zooks now and rely on ATGs.  Crazy's original post was complaining why there are too many ATGs, and other than the fragile M10, handheld AT (doctrine specific) and the ubiquitous ATG, what else is there to field to counter heavy tanks?

Maybe if you cool down and just don't shoot down plausible explanations as 'fanboy-ism', you might see that for yourself.

Me. I spam zooks but i have TR. all my rangers have zooks only (8 of 'em) and no smgs, it's how ive always played. I'm not very good with assault weapons.