[CW] Button Should Be Gone.

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[NightRain]

Alright gents. I'll open up a decent discussion of balance and this time the key figure will be- The British Button.

History: In VCoH the British army was given three solid pieces of Anti tank, PIAT, 17Pdr and the Firefly. Because PIATs and 17Pdrs were early game pieces and had nothing vs Early stage light vehicles (Pumas etc) they had this ability called Button. That will stop vehicles dead in their track to prevent naughty axis vehicles from rushing their little base they build around a VP.

Now this ability has been carried over to Europe in Ruins and I say with a clear intent: It should be removed.

Why?

Considering that you can call out any anti tank piece at any point of given time to the battlefield without having to tech up to it already tells that it is un-needed ability.

Also, it comes on the best infantry platform: The Tommy squad. 5 Men with a soldier armor. They get 2x Brens that can also be considered one of the best LMGs when comparing: LMG42 and BAR.

Also- this: British faction got their own support weapons. We have 3 inch Mortar, Vickers Machinegun AND a 6Pdr Anti tank gun with a cloak!

What Button is?

14 Seconds (+T2 = 17) of Immobility, no LoS and No-aiming for what? 35-40 Range. Instant Ability no deployment time. It just pops immediately on.


A reason why Button should be removed is the most common British line: Vickers, Brensquad, 6Pdr. This is only 13 Pop but it can hold back anything. Popwise the cheapest axis tank is 12. StuG as a Assault Gun is 8. It can move fluidly as the mg can redeploy and the bren can button any flanking vehicle etc even a dork can use these 3 units to stop a incoming assault force.

The only Real counter to this line is a desicive use of T2 Blitzkrieg Assault Grenades as it is the most reliable and strongest strike.


Lets take in Concerns of the Allied players:

- British have no Vehicle Disablers.

Neither does Wehrmacht. Wehrmacht has exactly: Mines (Comes only on Pioneers 2 man squad, useless without a flamethrower or minesweeper), Slowmines and Panzerfaust with a small crit bonus. British: PIATs and Mines which are pretty sufficient enough and if that is not enough give British infantry hawkin mines for same effect.

The British AT in EIRR is Currently rather solid: 6Pdr, PIATs, FireFly and the 17Pdr.

- I can damage vehicles but I can not kill them D:

Stuart is a Upgun Puma, try using it to kill retreating vehicles or better yet, use TETRACHS! British can finish off damaged tanks with same means as Wehrmacht can except better due to tetrach.

Anything else? Now I need Community's opinnions.

Why British Need Button?

[TheIcelandicManiac]

i dont think the slowmines work tbh for i had loads of them laying around the battle feild and when the enemy drove over them they just went pop and that was all.
i agree to a sertain point that button should be atleast nerfd but tbh unless you are figting a pro button is not much of a problome and due to the slow pin rate of the vickers you can just place 2-3 squads of grens to split up and run into the lines for they are allready gone half way when the first squad is suppressed.

[Rahx]

Did you lost a game?

[PonySlaystation]

would you prefer if they had AP rounds and stickies?

WM used to have Faust but we all know what happened to that.

[BigDick]

+1 to thread

he named exactly the reasons why it is there in vcoh and is op in eir

[NightRain]

i dont think the slowmines work tbh for i had loads of them laying around the battle feild and when the enemy drove over them they just went pop and that was all.

2 Doctrines offer Suppression Fire to Vickers as a T2 however Vickers does pin Reliably.

The current thing with the slowmines is probably just a bug which will be fixed in the future patches, therefore its current status is not a reliable argument

Did you lost a game?

What kind of a question is this in a balance thread? If you have no concerns, please, stop posing in this thread.

would you prefer if they had AP rounds and stickies?

WM used to have Faust but we all know what happened to that.

AP rounds aren't really necessary due to existance of Firefly, Non-doc PIATs or T1 17Pdr which has access to AP rounds.

[Unkn0wn]

i dont think the slowmines work tbh for i had loads of them laying around the battle feild and when the enemy drove over them they just went pop and that was all.

Fixed next patch.

Also, button is something we've been wanting to address for some time now. Though it's unlikely button will be 'removed from the game', what's more likely is that it'll receive an overhaul.

[NightRain]

Also, button is something we've been wanting to address for some time now. Though it's unlikely button will be 'removed from the game', what's more likely is that it'll receive an overhaul.

In my honest opinnion- button should be gone. Entirely, period, thrown to the same garbagecan as the Kangoroo. It has no place in EIRR, other than griefing others.

[Spartan_Marine88]

In my honest opinnion- button should be gone. Entirely, period, thrown to the same garbagecan as the Kangoroo. It has no place in EIRR, other than griefing others.

Ill be completly honest, button isn't that useful. Its a great big scary thing that noob players walk there faces into. But to anyone with half an ounce of skill maybe works 1 in 10 times, although it probably sits in your mind.


Button is what 15 range? your tank is 40? I always get so confused when i hear these stories of british infantry teleporting beside a tank and buttoning it while the axis playes has not 1 squad of infantry to kill the squad

[tank130]

...... snip ... thrown to the same garbagecan as the Kangoroo.

Not sure just how secure that garbage can is........

[NightRain]

Ill be completly honest, button isn't that useful. Its a great big scary thing that noob players walk there faces into. But to anyone with half an ounce of skill maybe works 1 in 10 times, although it probably sits in your mind.


Although to ask nicely, if you got buttoned, why the fuck did you charge a tank into a blob of british infantry alone.

Leave button alone, its not really an issue.

How can button be NOT useful? It is instant and even if at the longest range still disables a vehicle and offers up to 2 Anti tank gun shots on the tank. Even in general fighting if you reverse your tank away from Assault because of a bren squad nearby you lose the fight and you can be atg creeped. It doesn't matter do you get buttoned or not as you still have to pull back with the vehicle. Should you charge in, you lose a tank. Support? Oi, 12 pop tank buttoned and covered by 13 pop (Bren, MG, ATG). The only solution is Assault or offmap. Nothing else would solve this quickly enough to save the tank from destruction.

The button has no reason to be in EIRR. You never came up with a single good reason WHY it HAS to be in the game. You are basically saying L2P which isn't the answers I'm looking for. I can and will deal with button, however it being beatable does not make it balanced mind you.

Button is 30-35 Range mind you. Twice the ammount of a sticky and instant. No deployment time, just POP tank buttoned.

[Spartan_Marine88]

It is instant

It is but it isn't. unless you let the squad get right on top of you you have almost a full second to break the button before you feel any effects.

This really is a learn to play moment. I mean there are so many ways to break and negate button, but most axis players don't want to hear it, they just want to play easy mode

How hard is it to understand, try to keep 20 range between you and british infantry?

[NightRain]

It is but it isn't. unless you let the squad get right on top of you you have almost a full second to break the button before you feel any effects.

This really is a learn to play moment. I mean there are so many ways to break and negate button, but most axis players don't want to hear it, they just want to play easy mode

If you want to go there. Tell us, Tell the Community the COUNTERS to the button. The only one I've come up with is assault as it takes out the brensquad to end the button. However it doesn't save the tank from having to repair itself.

[Spartan_Marine88]

If you want to go there. Tell us, Tell the Community the COUNTERS to the button. The only one I've come up with is assault as it takes out the brensquad to end the button. However it doesn't save the tank from having to repair itself.

I DID
fine 30 range you still out range it and are faster. COUNTER STAY AWAY FROM IT.

You get range buttoned, back up and break it.

Kill the vulnerable button squad with one of your squads (you do support your tanks right?)

Stop thinking because your axis you should have invincible tanks that should trollolol all over the allies.

Oh and you can also break stickies, you know that right?

[Mysthalin]

Button is 30 range - as in, not 15. As in, LONG.

To put it in purely mathematical terms, a bren squad is a walking area of 2826 square CoH metres of potential complete tank disability, on top of being an extremely capable anti-infantry unit.

If an axis company wishes to overrun a brittish position with tanks, it requires to have +1 vehicle to however many brittish bren squads are in the general area. Considering a bren squad is 5 popcap, while the cheapest combat-capable vehicle is also 5 popcap(flammenwerfer) it's not exactly an easy feat to bring out more tanks than there are enemy bren squads.

The effects ARE instant on button. The only effect that is not instant is the disabling of the gun, which takes 5 seconds.

[NightRain]

I DID

It is 15 range. COUNTER STAY AWAY FROM IT.

You get range buttoned, back up and break it.

Kill the vulnerable button squad with one of your squads (you do support your tanks right?)

Stop thinking because your axis you should have invincible tanks that should trollolol all over the allies.

As mysthalin said 30 range. It is long, LONG.

Don't you support your brensquad? I mean, 3 pop. Machinegun. If bringing a tank in the engagement that'll be at least 12 pop where as Bren is 5. Which one has more pop for support? Bren of course. Supporting the tank is also rather difficult when there is a machinegun and every Line you need to break through has a machinegun in it and ATG, one or two.

Also to your last line: You are obviously biased and therefore I see your points being no longer valid. No one here claimed that tanks have to be invicible, that came from your own imagination, I'm here to state why button should be removed and has no place in EIRR.

[Spartan_Marine88]

As mysthalin said 30 range. It is long, LONG.

Don't you support your brensquad? I mean, 3 pop. Machinegun. If bringing a tank in the engagement that'll be at least 12 pop where as Bren is 5. Which one has more pop for support? Bren of course. Supporting the tank is also rather difficult when there is a machinegun and every Line you need to break through has a machinegun in it and ATG, one or two.

Also to your last line: You are obviously biased and therefore I see your points being no longer valid. No one here claimed that tanks have to be invicible, that came from your own imagination, I'm here to state why button should be removed and has no place in EIRR.

30 range is not as long as your tank.

and as to my bias, i play everything with a preference for PE. but hey, i must be brit biased then.

Balance Forum Guidelines

8. "Biased players"

This is close to a myth, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, if X member of the community feels like only trying to point out the weak side of a faction while only the strong points of the opposite, it doesn't make him "biased". As long he doesn't break any of the other rules/guidelines he is free to keep posting as much as he wants, we apprecciate well thought feedback.

[8thRifleRegiment]

Alright gents. I'll open up a decent discussion of balance and this time the key figure will be- The British Button.

History: In VCoH the British army was given three solid pieces of Anti tank, PIAT, 17Pdr and the Firefly. Because PIATs and 17Pdrs were early game pieces and had nothing vs Early stage light vehicles (Pumas etc) they had this ability called Button. That will stop vehicles dead in their track to prevent naughty axis vehicles from rushing their little base they build around a VP.

Now this ability has been carried over to Europe in Ruins and I say with a clear intent: It should be removed.

Why?

Considering that you can call out any anti tank piece at any point of given time to the battlefield without having to tech up to it already tells that it is un-needed ability.

Also, it comes on the best infantry platform: The Tommy squad. 5 Men with a soldier armor. They get 2x Brens that can also be considered one of the best LMGs when comparing: LMG42 and BAR.

Also- this: British faction got their own support weapons. We have 3 inch Mortar, Vickers Machinegun AND a 6Pdr Anti tank gun with a cloak!

What Button is?

14 Seconds (+T2 = 17) of Immobility, no LoS and No-aiming for what? 35-40 Range. Instant Ability no deployment time. It just pops immediately on.


A reason why Button should be removed is the most common British line: Vickers, Brensquad, 6Pdr. This is only 13 Pop but it can hold back anything. Popwise the cheapest axis tank is 12. StuG as a Assault Gun is 8. It can move fluidly as the mg can redeploy and the bren can button any flanking vehicle etc even a dork can use these 3 units to stop a incoming assault force.

The only Real counter to this line is a desicive use of T2 Blitzkrieg Assault Grenades as it is the most reliable and strongest strike.


Lets take in Concerns of the Allied players:

- British have no Vehicle Disablers.

Neither does Wehrmacht. Wehrmacht has exactly: Mines (Comes only on Pioneers 2 man squad, useless without a flamethrower or minesweeper), Slowmines and Panzerfaust with a small crit bonus. British: PIATs and Mines which are pretty sufficient enough and if that is not enough give British infantry hawkin mines for same effect.

The British AT in EIRR is Currently rather solid: 6Pdr, PIATs, FireFly and the 17Pdr.

- I can damage vehicles but I can not kill them D:

Stuart is a Upgun Puma, try using it to kill retreating vehicles or better yet, use TETRACHS! British can finish off damaged tanks with same means as Wehrmacht can except better due to tetrach.

Anything else? Now I need Community's opinnions.

Why British Need Button?

Very in detail post, perfectly writen, Nuff said hes named all the reasons why it shouldnt be in eirr. Good job speedy

[Mysthalin]

30 range is not as long as your tank.


8. "Biased players"

This is close to a myth, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, if X member of the community feels like only trying to point out the weak side of a faction while only the strong points of the opposite, it doesn't make him "biased". As long he doesn't break any of the other rules/guidelines he is free to keep posting as much as he wants, we apprecciate well thought feedback.

You were the one that screamed "bias!" at speedy first(in the form of "my axis tanks should rape everything" statement). He had every right to respond in kind.

[BigDick]

Button is 30 range - as in, not 15. As in, LONG.

To put it in purely mathematical terms, a bren squad is a walking area of 2826 square CoH metres of potential complete tank disability, on top of being an extremely capable anti-infantry unit.

If an axis company wishes to overrun a brittish position with tanks, it requires to have +1 vehicle to however many brittish bren squads are in the general area. Considering a bren squad is 5 popcap, while the cheapest combat-capable vehicle is also 5 popcap(flammenwerfer) it's not exactly an easy feat to bring out more tanks than there are enemy bren squads.

The effects ARE instant on button. The only effect that is not instant is the disabling of the gun, which takes 5 seconds.

thats not entirely true
you can push the button squad using a bike e.g. makes it tank+3pop but that is to much theory

in eir games it is mostly a deathtrap to rush a brit defend position with a vehicle/tank to make a breakthrough and follow with inf....

spartanmarine always talks about the situation where you want to use button offensively but he should think about the defensive usage
currently the british have the best defensive AT (cloaked 57mm, with non doctrinal ambush piats and the bren buttoning with 30 range)