Prison, health care, society

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[Mysthalin]

My point is simple : I think that americans whining about being poor to me is a retarded concept.

I just can't comprehend how you failed to understand that simple point.

[Malgoroth]

The world will never be a giant friendly cushion. You try to raise your child to have every advantage over other children, so that they will thrive. It's the survival of your own genetics, the driving force behind humanity.

The ideal of a perfect peaceful world lasts about as long as it takes for one person to say fuck this, get some guns, blow a up building, and shoot some kids.

We're not talking about the feasibility of a cushion planet. We're talking about your willingness to take care of a child if that child had no threats to face in their life.

[Smokaz]

My point is simple : I think that americans whining about being poor to me is a retarded concept.

I just can't comprehend how you failed to understand that simple point.

Your point is simply changed, brah. Allow us to recount the tale of mysthalin the nomadic bard in the early history of page 3 in this thread.

When you have an xbox360, a PS3, drink beer and smoke pot all day long, on top of being dressed in decent clothes while UNEMPLOYED is NOT poor.

It's kewl I'm a veteran of internet wars, chopping up suckas ain't no news to sergeant smokaz.

[AmPM]

Your point is simply changed, brah. Allow us to recount the tale of mysthalin the nomadic bard in the early history of page 3 in this thread.

It's kewl I'm a veteran of internet wars, chopping up suckas ain't no news to sergeant smokaz.

I think Mystalins point is that those people are not anywhere near poor on a global standard. They have food, shelter, water, and luxuries.

[Mysthalin]

It's the exact same point, Smokaz.

I think that americans whining about being poor is retarded, seeing as they have access to not just, food, shelter, water, entertainment, clothing and luxuries - but even a very high standard of food, clothing and entertainment.

[Smokaz]

Except they don't because their unemployment rates and price of education is much higher even if base goods are more expensive, you have to have some ambition for them outside of being a slimeball

[Mysthalin]

Their unemployment rates are hardly unbearable, and their unemployment benefits are actually quite good.

Oh dear, education is expensive. So what, you don't HAVE to be educated with a university degree to get a job. You can easily rise to management positions through nothing more but hard work.

Also, just so you know I am paying for my degree as well, and it's hardly "cheap" - though thankfully it's on a "repay once your degree is finished" basis. I don't even get any sort of benefits or grants, nor do I even get a maintenance loan.

(Just to serve as a guideline : with my grades and my family income, had I been living in the UK 3 years prior to me starting my course, I'd be entitled to a £3,200/year maintenance grant from the student loans company alone, and the University would probably top it up by an extra £3000/year - that being the estimated sum that the UK government and University boards believe to be necessary as support for somebody such as myself. I don't get that, but I somehow easily manage to both come to university and survive enjoying quite a good life.)

[BigDick]

I think Mystalins point is that those people are not anywhere near poor on a global standard. They have food, shelter, water, and luxuries.

but poor or not is defined by the surrounding where you live

if you live in a country where many people have some car, a 80-100qm flat/house tons of hightec entertainment, holiday flights to foreign countries and even enough money for drugs and hookers you will be poor if you only can afford enough food and basic stuff

it has more to do with american vulgar capitalism spread out around developed nations dividing people into 2 classes the poor ones and the rich ones

[Mysthalin]

but poor or not is defined by the surrounding where you live

if you live in a country where many people have some car, a 80-100qm flat/house tons of hightec entertainment, holiday flights to foreign countries and even enough money for drugs and hookers you will be poor if you only can afford enough food and basic stuff

That is indeed a very fair point - but in the context of the discussion I think it may have to be mitigated.

It is often argued that Americans suffer from a high crime rate due to a high degree of poverty - which to me, is utter bollocks, because poverty is a standard of living in which the family is unable to afford a decent standard of food and shelter. Now, considering that in American society even "the poor" have access to not only a decent standard of food and shelter, but also a good standard of entertainment with their incomes - the entire argument of Americans having a high crime rate due to poverty simply falls apart on its own.

I am not arguing that American society isn't unequal. It definitely is unequal and segregated. But expecting to invoke feelings of pity upon the American poor in garnering support for a more socialist America is silly.

[Unkn0wn]

They have food, shelter, water, and luxuries.

Tell that to the American families that lost their houses in the subprime mortgage crisis.

I am not arguing that American society isn't unequal. It definitely is unequal and segregated. But expecting to invoke feelings of pity upon the American poor in garnering support for a more socialist America is silly.

ALMOST as silly as someone claiming that the poor have only themself to blame for being poor. This is nonsense, there's this thing called 'structural' poverty, go look it up.

Also, just so you know I am paying for my degree as well, and it's hardly "cheap" - though thankfully it's on a "repay once your degree is finished" basis. I don't even get any sort of benefits or grants, nor do I even get a maintenance loan.

Yea, indebting yourself to get a degree is the way to go. Are you fucking serious? Had you come to Belgiumn or some other country that doesn't ask OUTRAGEOUS amounts of money for education, you would've gotten a university degree for no more than 500 euros a year. The notion that people have to take a loan to be able to study at university is RETARDED. GREAT, you graduate and you get to bust your ass off just so you can pay back your debt.

[AmPM]

People that lost their houses are idiots, they lost them because they bought a house they couldn't afford in any realistic way. I know people in their 20's that made nowhere near enough and bought $800k homes.

[Killer344]

Lol.

[Smokaz]

man, its a sad day when i look at a thread and only unknown escapes being labeled being retarded.. just you wait until im the new hemingway

[DarkSoldierX]

 Yea, indebting yourself to get a degree is the way to go. Are you fucking serious? Had you come to Belgiumn or some other country that doesn't ask OUTRAGEOUS amounts of money for education, you would've gotten a university degree for no more than 500 euros a year. The notion that people have to take a loan to be able to study at university is RETARDED. GREAT, you graduate and you get to bust your ass off just so you can pay back your debt.

500 euroes a year? SIGN ME UP!

[Heartmann]

Prisons according to Dostoyevsky, is something to be looked upon further, as he says, that the degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.

For example: Scandinavia have via a union between finland, Norway, denmark and sweden, promised to share information and exchange those whom would break the laws in either of these countries, there is of course a bigger version within the EU BUT the union within Scandinavia is different to the degree that if a offender has been through one system of prison, he Or she is sent back to that system!
The studies show that often the break outs are due to the fact that they either are in between 18-35 in which MOST repeat offenders are, or they are reaching the age where they figure they are fed up but dont want help and want to get into another form of system adjustment. (Dont ask me why this reasoning is so, im merely summarizing the literature and of course People whom read this dont forget that the summary is colored by my biased opinion of what i deem worthy of mention,)
Anyway they found that those that had changed prisons and gotten caught in denmark or the neighboring countries, which had different forms of correctional tools, the people whom had been used to a different treatment ex. 12 step process which sweden is now acclaiming to be the top method of reform, while denmark uses a form of cognitive correctional therapy the results is often very damaging and not only for the individual but they also often drag others along with them in there destructive reaction.

And in there we can find even more interesting versions of the society, 12 step is all about acknowledge your faults as a person and forgiveness to put it shortly, which rather reflects the Swedish society rather well, admit you are a failure and then proceed to realize you are just on in the masses of many.

The danish system is al about the the traditional way of looking at what is this persons reason for acting the way he or she does and MAKE that person realize that they should stop for the betterment of the country, Forced Normalization as it where rather danish, be like us or Piss off ^^ Of course that can be said about all ppl, but I Find the danes rather exel at this trait ^^

[acker]

People that lost their houses are idiots, they lost them because they bought a house they couldn't afford in any realistic way. I know people in their 20's that made nowhere near enough and bought $800k homes.

Wasn't there this huge chunk of the housing business dedicated towards selling low-income people houses publicly and shorting the housing market privately?


I don't think "idiot" is the first word that should come to mind for people who, in all probability, have never had the chance to take a single university-level finance class. The vast majority of the people paid to pay attention to finance and economics missed the bubble/insider trading/predatory lending practices, let alone the average person.

Hard to expect normal people to figure out that they were being screwed over before the bubble busrt.

[Mysthalin]

Tell that to the American families that lost their houses in the subprime mortgage crisis.

I see no reason why I should feel pity towards somebody who has fundamentally done the same as the guy who lost his life savings at a casino. Don't take risks (loans) you can not afford.

ALMOST as silly as someone claiming that the poor have only themself to blame for being poor. This is nonsense, there's this thing called 'structural' poverty, go look it up.

Don't mix up being poor and being in poverty. Being poor is acceptable : all it means is that you can't do everything you may want. Being in poverty means you can't afford the essential means of decent survival. Anyone in poverty in America pretty much deserves it.

Yea, indebting yourself to get a degree is the way to go. Are you fucking serious? Had you come to Belgiumn or some other country that doesn't ask OUTRAGEOUS amounts of money for education, you would've gotten a university degree for no more than 500 euros a year. The notion that people have to take a loan to be able to study at university is RETARDED. GREAT, you graduate and you get to bust your ass off just so you can pay back your debt.

Or I could of stayed in Litho and got the education for free. But the reason why I didn't is simple : I want a high-quality degree, so I'm going to study at a high-quality university, and I don't mind paying for it. Yeah, I'm taking the government sponsored loan, which I'll only start repaying once I've graduated and am earning over £15k/year, and it'll be a "massive" 9% of my wages that will be deducted towards footing my degree. Alternatively, I could of paid those same 9% to foot somebody else's degree in tax, assuming a free education system. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

The notion of universal university education is retarded. Nearly everyone in Litho has a degree, since it's free. The end result of that being that university degrees are utterly worthless - and that at the same time you need one just to mop the floor at a local cafe. The system just becomes retarded. I compare that to the UK, where degrees aren't free and.. well - I'll take my 80% chance of being employed in Economics with my BA and earn at least £25k, while paying for my degree over the 30% chance I'd have of being employed in Economics with an MA and earn, at most £7k a year, but having the degree free.

In short - why DOES everybody need a university degree? We need factory workers, cleaners and plumbers just as much as we need doctors and professors. Most of the simple jobs don't require degrees.

[acker]

I see no reason why I should feel pity towards somebody who has fundamentally done the same as the guy who lost his life savings at a casino. Don't take risks (loans) you can not afford.

People who go to casinos know that the average person will lose more than they gain. They can price risk and reward easily and rationally. The same is, and wasn't, true for investment or the housing bubble.

If you're saying that homebuyers should have appropriately priced risk and reward when the risks were actively and illegally suppressed by lenders, when the "risk" was completely missed by the people who were paid to watch out for this shit, you're an idiot. There is no way in hell this was the same as gambling.

Maybe if the house rigged the roulette wheels and slot machines, the analogy would somewhat work. But that's also illegal.

If you're speaking about the tiny minority who knew the actual risk/reward and chose to participate, you have a point.

Don't mix up being poor and being in poverty. Being poor is acceptable : all it means is that you can't do everything you may want. Being in poverty means you can't afford the essential means of decent survival. Anyone in poverty in America pretty much deserves it.

Pay no attention to people who "choose" to get cancer and get bankrupted by healthcare expenses. Sometimes people inherit fortunes, too. Luck isn't exclusive to COH, and plays are larger role than you might think. And luck is largely impartial to whether people "deserve" it or not.

I don't know what level of poverty (the government definition) is acceptable, or what institutions should be put in place (if any) to ameliorate it at that level. That's beyond me. However, I'd guess that luck should be moderated and that effort/indolence should be rewarded/punished. And that conditions should be kept above what we keep prisoners in for pragmatic reasons. So we don't have people robbing banks to get surgical treatment (we could simply deny public healthcare to prisoners, but that'd probably break some amendment).

On an off note, your definition of poor is terrible. No one can do anything they may want to do. You're literally lumping Bill Gates in with the !Kung for some reason.

The notion of universal university education is retarded. Nearly everyone in Litho has a degree, since it's free. The end result of that being that university degrees are utterly worthless - and that at the same time you need one just to mop the floor at a local cafe. The system just becomes retarded. I compare that to the UK, where degrees aren't free and.. well - I'll take my 80% chance of being employed in Economics with my BA and earn at least £25k, while paying for my degree over the 30% chance I'd have of being employed in Economics with an MA and earn, at most £7k a year, but having the degree free.

In short - why DOES everybody need a university degree? We need factory workers, cleaners and plumbers just as much as we need doctors and professors. Most of the simple jobs don't require degrees.

I'm not sure when further education becomes unproductive, but I'm fairly sure that four years of college is now nearly a necessity for sustaining "informed" voters. Voters who don't think that their president was born in Kenya. I don't have any statistics on it, though.

If you're doing econ, you probably know that education is an imperfect public good and also confers positive externalities to society, and that "9%" is much more complicated than equivalence would dictate.

[brn4meplz]

Maybe if the house rigged the roulette wheels and slot machines, the analogy would somewhat work. But that's also illegal.

I had to single this out.

American Roulette wheels have a 00 space for this exact reason. Why do you think there's 37 possible spaces for it to drop on but the maximum payout is 35-1. Blackjack and Poker are really the only things in a casino where you can minimize loss. Even then Poker is played against others and the house usually takes a rake.

Craps is ok for odds if you know what you're doing but statistically speaking 7 is the most common number and once something is 'On' in craps a 7 cleans the table of everything.

[acker]

I had to single this out.

American Roulette wheels have a 00 space for this exact reason. Why do you think there's 37 possible spaces for it to drop on but the maximum payout is 35-1. Blackjack and Poker are really the only things in a casino where you can minimize loss. Even then Poker is played against others and the house usually takes a rake.

Craps is ok for odds if you know what you're doing but statistically speaking 7 is the most common number and once something is 'On' in craps a 7 cleans the table of everything.

Yeah, I knew the roulette one, the casino has to earn money to function so one number pays directly to the house to make sure on average, the house wins by some margin. Or something like that. But that's not the same as rigging the wheel.

The analogy only somewhat works, though, I admit. Investment is positive-sum in general, for one thing. In the long run. Under fair and informed circumstances.

Don't know how to play craps