For Those Who Wants More Variety to Allies.

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[NightRain]

Alright, a lot of people seem to want more interesting things to Allies, more units and weapons so basically more stuff to kill and lose. So I made this thread to show people one crucial thing that is there to kill majority of the ideas.

Allies, already have everything they pretty much used in the war

Is it really so? One can actually see it for themselves. When I went to look for interesting things I found myself disappointed. THe only things I managed to find were already added to Allied arsenal or are not practicaly of any use. One thing I indeed did find was few variations from Sherman but even if such were added- it'd still be the same damn tank with nothing new added to it and Sherman with 75mm and 76mm already turns out to be like 2 different sherman variants.

For weapons there might be plenty around but even if added they'd still be obsolete due to BARs being simply the best lmg hands down. Who wants 30' cals lmg on a more expensive infantry squad when a cheaper squad gets BAR? No one.

While the only natural choice of things people want is vehicles- I hate to break it to you. All of the useful vehicles are already in the game. So the only thing left is support weapons and Infantry. But le gasp what is this? The British 17Pdr is the biggest ass cannon allies do get whole but what of it? It is big fat slow narrower arced 57mm which automatically means that 57mm makes it obsolete with its AP rounds. Why would anyone buy bigger gun when the standard one is just so much better as it can also hit light vehicles fairly well? I don't know the answer.

This leaves us machineguns. Vickers is already for the British with its SF so I don't know what else to add them, this leaves only one natural selection of machine guns. The heavy MG 50' cal. Then what of it? Its role? What would it be? Logical answer would be higher rate of fire 30' cal with a longer range that can damage vehicles? Seems logical unfortunately the 30' cal HMG team already does all of this in the same package for a damn cheap cost too. Pop AP rounds and those pesky light vehicles are gone if they don't disappear within seconds. Heavier mortar? Perhaps- but British already get it in a form of a emplacement with added range so even that is already in the game.

So what is left? Infantry. Now the glory of seeing a variety in infantry. It could be so fun to see each Company have its different variation of infantry. Canadian Arty has CAnadian infantry, Airborne has Airborne Riflemen but all of the others have their same standard infantry. Commandos are awsome with their lee enfields but their heavy cost reduces their number on the field and so does their- low survavibility. There'd be so many additions to infantry...though in the end having different variety of infantry would be cool with different upgrades but we all know one thing. Americans would still go with Riflemen with BARs and British with Tommies with Brens. They are simply the cheapesta nd easiest solution.

So- if this is true the only logical conclusion I've drawn is this: Allies, already, have, everything

See if you can find anything useful, I tried and I failed at it. I used those two links to find more stuff but I only found the same shit in different variations and things that have no real purpose nor models.

www.wwiivehicles.com

www.wwiiequipment.com

[NightRain]

In addition

The only thing pretty much left is Crossfactions. US getting their hands on Fireflies and other British Material where as British get their hands on some of US material. In the end, that'd leave more or less interesting opportunities for testing. CCT buffed Shermans- yeah I remember that. Armor buffed Fireflies and stuarts? Maybe.

In the end its the same stuff, different faction and that makes things interesting to say at least.

[nikomas]

Well, if someone could justify an allied KT then I suppose the T30 might be useable...
However, that would need to be a damned skilled talker 



Maybe an M19, I suppose it would be like an armored quad with more damage and less suppression... Altough it might feel like mirroring the ost a bit much...



For brits... an archer maybe?





Still, cant say I've checked for models for any of them...

[hans]

nonono,

we just can add things that are really there (models...)

those things in the pictures are not possible.

btw EASY EIGHT sherman plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

and nightrain, ur logic fails abit, coz the axis got somuch new stuff they never needed so FAIL

[NightRain]

nonono,

we just can add things that are really there (models...)

those things in the pictures are not possible.

btw EASY EIGHT sherman plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

and nightrain, ur logic fails abit, coz the axis got somuch new stuff they never needed so FAIL

What stuff did the axis get that they don't need? Only unit Axis never needed was KCH from VCoH.

Easy Eight would still be a sherman. Nothing different about anything just... another sherman with nothing special to it.

[PonySlaystation]

What stuff did the axis get that they don't need?

volksgrenadiers, ostwind, king tiger, panther, stuh, stug, leig, geschutzwagen and sniper.

[NightRain]

volksgrenadiers, ostwind, king tiger, panther, stuh, stug, leig, geschutzwagen and sniper.

Volksgrenadiers are their standard infantry. Grenadiers are assault infantry

Ostwind is their only reliable anti infantry tank without a doc unlock

King Tiger is their heaviest breakthrough tank

Panther is their last tier heavy tank destroyer up to par with Pershings and upgun Shermans

StuH is their Howizer type of a vehicle designed to take out entrenched opponents.

Gwagon is ToV shite

.... I'm not going to comment on the sniper part

[PonySlaystation]

No, those are all the "unnecessary" units that could theoretically be removed without affecting balance.

Volksgrenadiers are their standard infantry. Grenadiers are assault infantry

If volks are the standard infantry then grenadiers could be removed.

Ostwind is their only reliable anti infantry tank without a doc unlock

No, that would be the PzIV.

King Tiger is their heaviest breakthrough tank
Panther is their last tier heavy tank destroyer up to par with Pershings and upgun Shermans

And what is the allied equivalency of these units? You see EIR don't have that thing that vCoH has where allies are stronger early game and axis are stronger late game.

So it's ok if allies have few units but it's not ok if axis have few units?

I don't think that any of the units I mentioned should be removed because they give us the option to build different companies and use different strategies. Just like what would happen if there were more allied units.

And there are plenty of allied weaponry and vehicles that could be implemented into the mod.

[NightRain]

No, those are all the "unnecessary" units that could theoretically be removed without affecting balance.

If volks are the standard infantry then grenadiers could be removed.

No, that would be the PzIV.

And what is the allied equivalency of these units? You see EIR don't have that thing that vCoH has where allies are stronger early game and axis are stronger late game.

They don't need mirroring that's the whole point. However this falls to Offtopic and if you feel the need to make a thread of these so called unnecessary units you may do it.

[PonySlaystation]

They don't need mirroring that's the whole point.

That's not what I was saying. I said that Axis have King Tigers but Allies have jack shit.

[NightRain]

That's not what I was saying. I said that Axis have King Tigers but Allies have jack shit.

If it bothers you you may make a thread about the King Tiger and Tigers if they are unbalanced. If you want to be useful and contribute to this thread show us a Allied "king tiger" that has a model out there and can be used in EIRR.

[PonySlaystation]

If it bothers you you may make a thread about the King Tiger and Tigers if they are unbalanced. If you want to be useful and contribute to this thread show us a Allied "king tiger" that has a model out there and can be used in EIRR.

You really don't get it do you? The King Tiger is a redundant unit, it has no purpose in balance. Most units have an equivalency. Like the Panzer IV is the equivalent of the Sherman. The King Tiger has no equivalency. It has no purpose in balance, it could be removed and it wouldn't affect balance. It's just an extra unit.

Axis has more units in vCoH because it fits their gameplay. But EIR is not vCoH.

In EIR Axis have more units for no real reason. They're just extra units, but they still add a lot to the gameplay. Just like more units for the allies would.

[nikomas]

In EIR Axis have more units for no real reason. They're just extra units, but they still add a lot to the gameplay. Just like more units for the allies would.

Yeah, and he is saying there is not much left to add for the allies....
Take the easy eight, it's slightly different Sherman, but its a Sherman like the 75, 76, firefly, jumbo and Croc... Aren't there enough Sherman already?

With Wher it's different, the PzIV, Ost, Panther and Tiger all feel different, look different and they are not just the same tank with a different gun, Unlike the Sherman the axis aren't using PzIV ausf A-F


Tell you what, how about you ask for Lee's and valentines instead? I'm sure you'd use those, Because they certainly would be worth using over the shermans and cromwells... Just like how all axis players want some PZIII's!

While at it why not some french and Italian tanks, because they matched up so well against German and US ones!

[hans]

You really don't get it do you? The King Tiger is a redundant unit, it has no purpose in balance. Most units have an equivalency. Like the Panzer IV is the equivalent of the Sherman. The King Tiger has no equivalency. It has no purpose in balance, it could be removed and it wouldn't affect balance. It's just an extra unit.

Axis has more units in vCoH because it fits their gameplay. But EIR is not vCoH.

In EIR Axis have more units for no real reason. They're just extra units, but they still add a lot to the gameplay. Just like more units for the allies would.

+1
good one

btw Nightrain U ARE AN AXIS FANBOY srsly

[smurfORnot]

why not make everything like in chess,everyone has few same units,and there you go,perfect ballance
doctrines,what doctrines,they have no place in balance,everything should be plain and simple.

[hans]

why not make everything like in chess,everyone has few same units,and there you go,perfect ballance
doctrines,what doctrines,they have no place in balance,everything should be plain and simple.

its really not needed tbh, but every new unit added will make trouble and atm we have lots of new stuff that is making trouble and should get balanced + to take a look at doctrin balance

[BigDick]

If volks are the standard infantry then grenadiers could be removed.

No, that would be the PzIV.
And what is the allied equivalency of these units?

the "problem" is coh is no mirror matches
the volks are weaker than the riflemen and the grenadiers are stronger than the riflemen...there is no riflemen mirror unit because the wehr has two more specialized units that mix up
the P4 is the exact opposite
the P4 is the "riflemen type" more generalized unit in that case
there is the 75mm sherman and the 76mm sherman that are more specialized and mix up

So it's ok if allies have few units but it's not ok if axis have few units?

they (wehr) have few units when it comes to light vehicles and tank destroyers but they have more non doctrinal infantry until u mix in the doctrines

the problem for many is that axis are high risk high reward units while allies are in most cases throw in and come in numbers to win units are...
u can win as allied team with much less points than the axis team by just pumping out units of ur bigger company

[smurfORnot]

the problem for many is that axis are high risk high reward units

volk+stug spam anyone 

[hans]

i guess the problem is not the mirroring of certain units, there is no point in it coz there is no mirroring

- pershing is not same as tiger
- grenadier is not same as rifleman

but, i guess the variety could be a problem, coz is it accepted to give the axis a higher variety of units and the allies are sitting there with the same small but strong and balanced companies?

why do u give axis pak40, kch oak leaves, ...

ye sure, pak 40 is the mirror of the pak38 and kch oak leaves are same as kch

instead of talking about what they NEED or NOT NEED, its already done, we should talk about the variety u added to the axis and u could add to allies

so why is it wrong to add an easy eight tank that has more firepower and more armour then a nromal sherman but slower, or other shit

okay i heard that would break balance,

but hey balance is already broken by pak 40, stummel, 95mm cromwell, fallis that can move cloaked and are getting very good buffs in this case and so on,

and u still talk about THEY DONT NEED IT coz it breaks balance, then u should remove all new units tbh

[Audemed]

The problem is that allies lack special purpose infantry (storms, sneeky falls, falls TB, 4 man KCH) in the way axis have. There's airborne, which are fragile dedicated AT. Rangers, which are mediocre AT/decent AI, and Assault engies, which are glass cannon AI. None are as highly preservable as the axis units. None have the AT and AI utility that the axis units have (KCH/falls have fausts, shreck storms can get bundle nade from cloak). None have heroic crits or moving in cloak.

Then there's all the extra vehicles/support weapons. Axis gets Lieg, allies get GMC. One needs to be brought into line with the other, tbh.

Allies get jumbo, church, pershing, axis gets tiger, KT, JP.

105's and priests, vs 88's with arty and hummels with incendiary splash.

Then there's units and abilities that are just stupid. Scoutcars with instant lockdown + suppression, that do way more damage than a suppression unit ought to. Marders are stupidly OP, especially under lockdown (moving lockdown is also the brainchild of someone with downs). 4 man KCH are nigh unstoppable with bot T3 in the proper hands. X7 rocket shouldn't be in the game. Henshcel run chases you across the map, and kills full health shermans with nothing you can do about it. Defensive rocket strike obliterates everything in the radius with no warning and no chance of escape.

This is why people avoid playing allies.