What an EIR Automatcher should look like.

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[Demon767]

Im sorry mods, i really have to post this as my reaction cant be described in any other way.

If not trolling Jstek, read every word carefully in the quote i provided you.

[Jstek]

I did read your quote.. Why do you have a problem matching up bad players with other bad players?  Why does it have to be Leet players vs bad players?  Why can't it be balanced so the new (bad) players can have a more balanced game with other players similarly matched? 

Why do you have such an objection to this kind of gameplay?  Is it because the players against this kind of gameplay are actually quite self-serving and self-gratifying themselves?

[Mister Schmidt]

Umm, we don't not want new players, that's completely false.

In fact, I just wrote a long pm to AmiPolizeiFunk (Creater of Sunday Night Fights) about possibly doing a special on EiR, which would rake in new players by the bucket load.

Additionally, tomorrow I'm gonna draft up a letter to PC Gamer to send them so they can hopefully feature the mod once the warmap is in.

You're extremely misplaced if you think we don't want new players, we do, I think what everyone means is that most people play because they enjoy the game, whether they win or not.

[Jstek]

You're extremely misplaced if you think we don't want new players, we do, I think what everyone means is that most people play because they enjoy the game, whether they win or not.

You honestly believe the majority of players love to lose 90% of all games?

Bringing in new players into the game now without a proper mechanism to shelter them from constant stomps and beat-down would be a waste of PR potential.  Because, I am sure your only getting one shot in doing the PR campaign this time around.
Which means if you bring in the new blood now in the current state, your only going to capture 1% instead of 90% of players.

But on the flip-side all the vets of the game will crawl out of their holes and be happy to rape-face all the noobs.  It will only be a short-term surge until they all quit because the community is too intimating.

[Demon767]

oh my GAWD you are a headache!

Why do you have a problem matching up bad players with other bad players?

When did i say this GAH!
We dont have bad players to match up with bad players

we wouldnt be talking here if we had players, which we dont. we wouldnt be saying, OMFG war on stomps! if we had enough players in the community.

Why does it have to be Leet players vs bad players?  Why can't it be balanced so the new (bad) players can have a more balanced game with other players similarly matched? 

I have no spoken once about the automatching system, but i quote again

we wouldnt be talking here if we had players, which we dont. we wouldnt be saying, OMFG war on stomps! if we had enough players in the community.

[Jstek]

oh my GAWD you are a headache!
When did i say this GAH!
We dont have bad players to match up with bad playersI have no spoken once about the automatching system, but i quote again

we wouldnt be talking here if we had players, which we dont. we wouldnt be saying, OMFG war on stomps! if we had enough players in the community.

Your stuck in a hard spot then.  Cause you WONT be growing these numbers anytime if you don't have something in play to manage it.  So i guess that means your screwed if you don't or your screwed if you do.  Hmm.. which way would you like to be screwed?

[Jstek]

Or you can think out of the box.  But it kinda comes with the realization that there is a problem first before you can actually devise a solution.  From what I am hearing and seeing, you can't even acknowledge that there is a problem which only means your going to continue to repeat mistakes.

[Demon767]

Splitting the community is not the answer then, which the automatching system will do. Relying on players is the only option in such a small community.

No one using GC is an example of no one wanting to use the option, if automatch was forced, no one will play because players wont have the option but forced to play against those who they are not skilled enough against. capiche

When did i say there was no problem, im ending talks with you, you are trolling.

[Jstek]

http://lsvp.wordpress.com/2008/02/17/19-rules-for-multiplayer-game-design/

See #5, #16.

I am trying to get my point across..  You say you see the problem but its not worth fixing.  I disagree.

[acker]

People who try this mod due to PR campaigns will vote with their feet, so to speak. It's always been like that for this mod.

That's really all I have to say about this.

[Jstek]

Since the link i provided will likely not be looked at I am going to recap some key pieces.  Perhaps this is spark some out of the box thinking.  Who knows.  I can only hope.  I can tell you just trying to get more folks into the game via PR campaign will not work.  Perfect example is OMG mod.  Which had a far better PR campaign and documentation than EIR.  Some would even say much more balanced.  However, what failed them most was folks being able to setup a company and playing a single game.  Thankfully EIR has that much better setup.  (Perhaps OMG Mod was more balanced or not but doesn't mean they balanced their player-base either)

Anyways here it is.  Just because, EIR has some pluses doesn't mean they are invulnerable to failure.  It only means they did something right.  But it can easily be offset but other factors.


1.)  Allow handicapping. Let players handicap themselves if they want. Some players are willing to play with one hand behind their back so let them. (The most common use of this will be parents and kids playing together).

2.)  Court your newbies. Nothing will destroy a player's interest in your game quicker than being humiliated a few times when they are just trying to figure out what to do. If possible build in inducements for advanced players to help newbies in order to get something to advance further in the game environment -- like taking an "apprentice" might be the only path to "master rank". At the very least try to make starting as safe on player's egos as you can.


3.)  "Zero sum" is bad. Games where I win and you lose are bad. Worse still is "I win and all the rest of you lose". Notwithstanding the current cultural obsession with endzone strutting by winners, losers do not enjoy themselves and if you can help take the sting out of it, you should. Alliances, cooperative play, ranked "winners" rather than "A winner" with a bunch of losers are all options.

---

Ill just comment on #3 for a second.  In COH you can't get rid of winners or looser (In the current form), but several ideas can be made up within the WARMAP to make it work; AKA objective to delay or weaken the enemy (even though your going to lose) for a greater purpose.  Some thought should be put into this I would hope.

Just FYI, I am a previous developer a long time ago.  I have created MODs that were quite well known.  Google me and I am sure you'll find some dirt on me; So I am not trolling.. I have experience in some of these issues....  Anyways, its your MOD.  I am just pointing out the glaring unsightly flaws that new folks will see but where older EIR vets have become blind too.  Its not pretty and it may be annoying to hear.  But its for the best..  Do what you want.

[Smokaz]

BRLAGHRHH.

When I am the only one standing out of both enemies and teammates, it means it has been a good game. It's a team game but the individual player can still be "out" of the game.

Stomp em in the nutz.

[Malgoroth]

I think what everyone means is that most people play because they enjoy the game, whether they win or not.

This is the exact point I was making. How Jstek made the leap from that to "the hell with noobs! stomp em!" is beyond me.

The rest of my post was merely an explanation as to why noobs have a hard time here.

Methinks someone is feeling a might persecuted.

[Demon767]

^ +1

[shockcoil]

How did we go from Demon saying we don't have enough players to make automatch worthwhile to Jstek going on a raging rant about... fuckit I don't even know? Mind is full of fuck.

[Smokaz]

Since the link i provided will likely not be looked at I am going to recap some key pieces.  Perhaps this is spark some out of the box thinking.  Who knows.  I can only hope.  I can tell you just trying to get more folks into the game via PR campaign will not work.  Perfect example is OMG mod.  Which had a far better PR campaign and documentation than EIR.  Some would even say much more balanced.  However, what failed them most was folks being able to setup a company and playing a single game.  Thankfully EIR has that much better setup.  (Perhaps OMG Mod was more balanced or not but doesn't mean they balanced their player-base either)

Anyways here it is.  Just because, EIR has some pluses doesn't mean they are invulnerable to failure.  It only means they did something right.  But it can easily be offset but other factors.


1.)  Allow handicapping. Let players handicap themselves if they want. Some players are willing to play with one hand behind their back so let them. (The most common use of this will be parents and kids playing together).

2.)  Court your newbies. Nothing will destroy a player's interest in your game quicker than being humiliated a few times when they are just trying to figure out what to do. If possible build in inducements for advanced players to help newbies in order to get something to advance further in the game environment -- like taking an "apprentice" might be the only path to "master rank". At the very least try to make starting as safe on player's egos as you can.


3.)  "Zero sum" is bad. Games where I win and you lose are bad. Worse still is "I win and all the rest of you lose". Notwithstanding the current cultural obsession with endzone strutting by winners, losers do not enjoy themselves and if you can help take the sting out of it, you should. Alliances, cooperative play, ranked "winners" rather than "A winner" with a bunch of losers are all options.

---

Ill just comment on #3 for a second.  In COH you can't get rid of winners or looser (In the current form), but several ideas can be made up within the WARMAP to make it work; AKA objective to delay or weaken the enemy (even though your going to lose) for a greater purpose.  Some thought should be put into this I would hope.

Just FYI, I am a previous developer a long time ago.  I have created MODs that were quite well known.  Google me and I am sure you'll find some dirt on me; So I am not trolling.. I have experience in some of these issues....  Anyways, its your MOD.  I am just pointing out the glaring unsightly flaws that new folks will see but where older EIR vets have become blind too.  Its not pretty and it may be annoying to hear.  But its for the best..  Do what you want.

Or you could just learn the game and accept that there will be players that can beat you. If you find games against opponents that always beat you pointless or unwanted, refuse to play with these players. Aquire friends you can play with.

[Jstek]

It's pointless to reason with you guys.  Just keep derailing.  Hopefully, MR EIR or whatever can make some sense of this if he can cut through all the crap.

Which also begs to also say, yarr spamming and derails and constant noise you make only helps in holding back the mod.

Btw, I would welcome Ground or EIR or whoever to provide me an export of your SQL database which stores the companies and vet and the win/loss and other stats and I am confident I could put together a SQL query that would identify if a certain match up is bias and by what degree...

But well see if that happens..  So many of that damn trolls here have way too many post just post BULLSHIT and really should take a look in the mirror and do something useful.  But whatever, its the internet its not like the bar is set very high for constructive intelligent dialog.

[Smokaz]

I'm sorry you are not feeling your monologue.. is heard, but if you haven't noticed development here happens in bursts, not slowly and steadily. Perhaps you should seek some temporary remedy to reduce your rage and my suggestion is then a good choice. Your ideas make sense if there actually was a good set of players to derive statistics from. Which there isn't. Because this game is super hard.

EIRR is a elimination game where the last guy in launcher wins. But you cannot win by forfeit, the others have to actually be.. stomped in the nutz.

[Malgoroth]

Just because we disagree with you about whether or not an auto-match feature would improve the experience for new players doesn't mean we're trolling. We're just trying to point out that EiR will always be tough for new people regardless of whatever "padding" you add for them.

[Demon767]

Stop calling others out, you're the damn troll.