88 accuracy vs inf/support weapons

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[Smokaz]

Should imo be dropped to the same level as the nashorn.

Not saying the 88 is very unbalanced, but with buffs it ends up being too strong vs support weapons and infantry. Not too sure about 57mms, but definitely infantry. It should be the job of other units to kill infantry.

Something like 0.05 or 0.02 would be kewl. (Including snipers, which it is just plain retarded that a 88 can have a chance above 0.01 % of killing.

[NightRain]

More hate toward the 88? Isn't it enough that deploying 88 is already very map dependant and its fragile crew is sustainable with artillery barrages and  with easier tool offmaps?

88 is actually one of the most balanced units in EIRR. It does its only job it can do. Area of Denial.

[Smokaz]

Is there a actual argument there in your post Nightrain? It outclasses anything comparable for 8 pop. It's supposed to deny tanks and vehicles - and with the arty doctrine you have a chance to make it semi-AI on cooldown - for 3 pop more than 57mm, cost less than a P4, it freaking shoots everything in the game from the highest range of all direct fire units. With sandbags aka properly fortified, it becomes close-to oblivious to arty.
Try to think across the board when you're saying the "88 does its job". This area denier role is something you could apply to anything. Mgs deny infantry, but only to a certain extent.

[hans]

...Not too sure about 57mms...

every single shot hits the 57mm

[hans]

+1 for the suggestion.

no atgun, and 88 seems to act partly as an atgun, has such a acc against infantry or support weapons
 

[lionel23]

Disagree, it already can't move and is super vulnerable to infantry and arty without Def T4.  And even though is it 'only 8 pop', the truck issue I believe has not been resolved when the truck is out and also the gun itself is not repairable; also it eats up a crap ton of fuel (which means 88 companies are not fielding vehicles).  If we're going to 'nerf' the 88, they should cost no fuel and allow me to field an army of P4s then.

[Smokaz]

Disagree, it already can't move and is super vulnerable to infantry and arty without Def T4.  And even though is it 'only 8 pop', the truck issue I believe has not been resolved when the truck is out and also the gun itself is not repairable; also it eats up a crap ton of fuel (which means 88 companies are not fielding vehicles).  If we're going to 'nerf' the 88, they should cost no fuel and allow me to field an army of P4s then.

Gun heals the item health using the medikit. It eats up less fuel than a skirted p4.

[Ahnungsloser]

Disagree, it already can't move and is super vulnerable to infantry and arty without Def T4.  And even though is it 'only 8 pop', the truck issue I believe has not been resolved when the truck is out and also the gun itself is not repairable; also it eats up a crap ton of fuel (which means 88 companies are not fielding vehicles).  If we're going to 'nerf' the 88, they should cost no fuel and allow me to field an army of P4s then.

- I can't move my 25 pounder, too. (Invalid argument)
- Other guns aren't repairable, too. (Invalid argument)
- All allied support crews have no Medkits (Which could heal their guns)
- All other AT support wapeons can't snipe infantry

[NightRain]

Triage Heals Anti tank guns (the gun itself) Medkit doesn't heal the Gun itself just the crew. Therefore 88 has no alternative or any possible way to heal itself if it takes damage. Plus it takes 30 seconds to construct it.

The Artillery ability in it is Doctrine and therefore does NOT belong into unit balance specificly because it is a Doctrine ability.

25Pdr is an artillery unit and if we were to compare a heavy class anti tank gun to a Arty- well ain't gonna work. 2 Different things. 2 Different roles. 2 different costs 1 similarity (Stationary)

A fortified 88 means a immobile artillery target for bombardments.

No other anti tank gun costs fuel and can't move. (relevant) No other Anti tank gun is restricted by map dependancy due to their mobility. The range is revelant if there are a lot of shot blockers 88s max potentiality will be decreased quite a lot.

[Smokaz]

Bombardements are NOT effective vs 88 if you put sandbags next to it. It's very random whether or not you deal dmg to it.

[hans]

... I believe has not been resolved when the truck is out and also the gun itself is not repairable; ...

what? i thought that the medic bunker is able to repair support weapons

[Computer991]

No other anti tank gun costs fuel and can't move. (relevant) No other Anti tank gun is restricted by map dependancy due to their mobility. The range is revelant if there are a lot of shot blockers 88s max potentiality will be decreased quite a lot.

That's a retarded argument man, That's not even an argument... It's not map dependable unless you're a baby name 3 maps that you can't use an 88. The fact that it cost 0 MU is huge, that's more MU that you can put into Mines, MG Bunkers(Which are fucking cheap),Shreks,ect ect. I know that in my defensive company I only use 1 panther and my other 450 fuel is free to buy 3 88's the fact that I can fit 6 88's in a company without having to buy paks is great, Also free arty? you're saying I get a free wesp? Cool. hands down 88 is the most cost efficient unit in game if used correctly. It's cheaper than a sniper and cost less than a panther and does both their jobs better(Inf sniping,Killing tanks) Being immobile is its only downside but who cares when you can just turtle hop your way to the front lines with 2 88's or however you chose to build your company.


88 Needs to have arty remove and accuracy vs infantry decreased end of story, it's an AT gun not a multi-purpous do all battle station

[Ahnungsloser]

No other anti tank gun costs fuel and can't move. (relevant) No other Anti tank gun is restricted by map dependancy due to their mobility. The range is revelant if there are a lot of shot blockers 88s max potentiality will be decreased quite a lot.

Only a few times i saw a game where Panther, StuHs or other units haven't destroyed the buildings, hedges or the rest of the enviroment.
Also the most player expand their 88 doomfortress into the Maginot-Line from WW1 and sitting in the trenches/bunkers so that it isn't easy
to break through this lines. In the most games where i faced a 88 are these maps without any cover or buildings like Abbeville so that the
88 denies all allied armour.


Be happy when a player waste it's artellery barrages on your fortified 88 instead of choosing other targets. The 88 take less damage from those
barrages and so you've "forced" the enemie players to make some errors.

88 Needs to have arty remove and accuracy vs infantry decreased end of story, it's an AT gun not a multi-purpous do all battle station Smiley

+1. It seems that the 88 is a very accurate artellery and it have no problems to take out other artellery. - lol.

[deadbolt]

its the only unit that counters everything, inf, armour and airplanes. i suggested this shit needed nerfing vs inf years ago. but nothing happened

[NightRain]

88 Arty ability has nothing to do with the base unit itself. IT is and will remain as a Doctrine ability. Same thing with Officer supervision. Just becuase they get them doesn't mean it automatically belongs to the unit. For example if you did NOT go for Arty experts but went for T4 other than Omniscience- you don't have that Artillery on the 88s. If you went for Dual T3s then you might have it.

Buildings even when destroyed remains as a shotblocker, hedges however can be disposed to extend the range for the weapon but at a cost of precious time. The longer it remains not fully functionating the longer it'll be vulnerable to any form of combat.

Taking away its Anti infantry/support weapon cabilities would make it- worse than Nashorn I'm afraid.

If the nerf is so much required, nerf the doctrine ability that gives the barrage to the 88.

---

With 450 fuel a 220 fuel costing thing- I'd say you only get 2 of them.

Though while slightly irrelevant if the enemy builds up that 'maginot line' you can yourself build your own Artillery battery line to bomb the crap out of the enemy for just 125 fuel for british, 180 for US Infantry, <insert Calliopes price here> For Armor.

The only one without any Onmap arty units would be Airborne.

On the topside. Defensive is known to have NOTHING for armor in regards of buffs. Should their Second Trademark lose value, the only thing they'd have left in the department of useful would be the officers. Defensive is known for 2 things only. Officer first, 88 second. If such nerf like this would take place, 88 would have to come down in price radically to make it worthwhile.

[TheArea]

If we nerf the 88 so it cant kill inf, shouldnt we also nerf arty so they cant kill tanks?

Also, I think smokaz was asking for 88 to be nerfed vs support units too (particularly atgs), again if that happens then I think it ought to take more than 3 AT shots to kill an 88.

88 is balanced, its rare that you ever see more than one on the field (per player), and even if they have 3 or 4 in their co (which is nuts) you'll  never have them out at once (like ATGs).

[deadbolt]

If we nerf the 88 so it cant kill inf, shouldnt we also nerf arty so they cant kill tanks?

wtf r u on about?

[nikomas]

wtf r u on about?

Makes sense to me, lol

[Audemed]

Am I the only one who skipped all of nightrain's posts?

IDK, 88 got a big anti-inf nerf in 2602, which was transferred over a while back afaik. Reducing it further...idk I'm not sure. Vs support weapons, (MG, mortars) it DEFINITELY needs an accuracy nerf, it's kinda lame to get a gun decrewed, and as you pick it up, you get gibbed by an 88. ATG's needs to stay the same, as they and 88's are each other's hard counter (neither ever misses each other).

[deadbolt]

none of eirs stats are inkeeping with vcoh. so the patch is irrelevant, amirite mods?