Panther early game?

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[nikomas]

Sence it can counter every single other allied tank exluding the Super Pershing.

So the pershing is a tank destroyer because it can counter axis tanks? I dont follow here... It has a high velocity gun with good AP properties, that does not make it a tank destroyer, it makes it a medium-heavy tank with a good gun.

So Hicks, you'd seriously pay that much for what would only be a tank destroyer? If I wanted tank destroyer I could pull 3 pumas out of my arse and kill something way faster for less than half the cost, just like how people use M10's.

[jackmccrack]

The panther is NOT a heavy TD, because it HITS INFANTRY.

THUS IT'S A HEAVY MEDIUM.

[Smokaz]

Wind, you are incorrect that the panther has not been changed in recent time and you are also incorrect if you say so for the long term perspective. It was reduced in fuel price, it is also facing nerfed allied handheld and vehicle disablers. It's not unlikely that the panther has crossed from fine to underpriced during these changes.
I'm not gonna list everything for you like your reply probably will demand, but it's there to find in the patch notes for the truly appreciative EIRR socialite.

You may also consider recent accuracy changes to m18 and m10 where the panther was left out.

Can you please explain to me why you are talking about an m10/hellcats accuracy vs infantry in this thread about a completely different unit with a very different purpose/role? It is completely baffling to me. I even had to check and make sure I was in the right thread.

Okay, wind. Let's look at the firefly accuracy vs targets that are not tanks then.

[aeroblade56]

The panther is NOT a heavy TD, because it HITS INFANTRY.

THUS IT'S A HEAVY MEDIUM.

So your saying because it hits infantry its not a TD?. i guess that just recently made m18s TD since before they were nerfed they would hit infantry nicely.

[Spartan_Marine88]

M10/M18 = TD.

Panther = Heavy TD.

Panther is not a TD

Im tired of hearing people say this.

But i forgot, just because it was in reality a Medium makes it a realism argument and shouldn't be applicable in EIRR. 

Germans didn't use turret less Tank Destroyers, point in fact the TD version of the Panther is called the JagdPanther. The Panther however is noted for being the direct descendant of the Panzer 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank


List of German Tank destroyers used in the War

    Panzerjäger I (202)
    SdKfz 132 Marder I (171)
    SdKfz 131 Marder II (576)
    SdKfz 138 Marder III (975)
    SdKfz 138/2 Jagdpanzer 38(t) "Hetzer" (2,584)
    SdKfz 142/1 Sturmgeschütz III Ausf. F/G(StuG III) (8,079)
    SdKfz 162 Jagdpanzer IV (1,977)
    SdKfz 164 Nashorn (494)
    SdKfz 173 Jagdpanzer V "Jagdpanther" (392)
    SdKfz 184 Panzerjäger Tiger (P) Elefant (90)
    SdKfz 186 Jagdpanzer VI "Jagdtiger" (77)


Now here is the Tanks
Light tanks

    SdKfz 101 Panzerkampfwagen I (3,970)
    SdKfz 121 Panzerkampfwagen II (3,996)
    Panzerkampfwagen 35(t) (Czechoslovakian design, 722 annexed + 219 produced)
    Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) (Czechoslovakian design, 1,168 total)

Medium tanks

    SdKfz 141 Panzerkampfwagen III (5,728)
    SdKfz 161 Panzerkampfwagen IV (11,900+)
    SdKfz 171 Panzerkampfwagen V "Panther" (~6,000)

Heavy tanks

    SdKfz 181 Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. E Tiger I (1,355)
    SdKfz 182 Panzerkampfwagen VII Ausf. B Tiger II or King Tiger (490)



Just to note, the Stug while originally designed as an assault gun, it was discovered that due to its great frontal armor and low profile combined with its high-velocity gun it made an amazing tank destroyer.

[Audemed]

Sence it can counter every single other allied tank exluding the Super Pershing.

Hmm....

The KT can counter every single allied tank INCLUDING the super pershing. Therefore:

KT = Heavy TD.

Done.

[aeroblade56]

Super pershing??

[TheWindCriesMary]

Wind, you are incorrect that the panther has not been changed in recent time and you are also incorrect if you say so for the long term perspective.

Can you do me the huge favour of explaining when the hell that was something that I ever said/argued? Do you want to double check on that note you blue balled beluga whale? I think you do. You and I disagree on enough things (like why it should be mandatory to apply common sense, a minimum of neanderthal level intelligence, and proper ethics to balance discussions) without you inventing imaginary extra things to argue about.

You may also consider recent accuracy changes to m18 and m10 where the panther was left out.

And why in the name of reason, logic or the universe would it be "odd" that the panther was left out of accuracy changes to a COMPLETELY different unit that has COMPLETELY different characteristics and which performs a VERY different role? Should I also "consider accuracy changes made to jeeps that weren't applied to the panther"?What about accuracy "changes made to the marder, or the staghound?" I can't even concieve how banal and mindblowingly nonsensical that would be.

Okay, wind. Let's look at the firefly accuracy vs targets that are not tanks then.

Completely different range, completely different price, completely different speed, completely different armour, completely different hp, completely different gun, completely different available doctrine buffs, completely different context within completely different armies.

And you, for some god knows why reason, want to compare its accuracy vs non-tank targets with the Panther? Just because you feel like it? Because it's certainly not for any actual reason that can be demonstrated via reasonable documentation or thought experimentation.


Just because I decide in my head, absent of all reason or logic, that a p4 has the same roll as a stuart in my head, does not mean I then can expect, nay "demand", that they get the same nerfs.


Jesus people, have we all recently undergone a collective lobotomy? Is there anyone left who can fathom the fact that CoH and its factions were NOT designed to be mirror balanced against eachother and that, god forbid, different factions would have different units with different strengths and weaknessses that would not directly line-up with those of their opponents?

Do you think a four year old designed these factions and that they said to themselves "derp, allies will have 1 medium tank, axis will have 1 medium tank. Then allies will get a TD, but to be fair Axis must get one too! BALANCE WIN! Beers for everyone, good job team!"

Stop trying to ruin this mod and what sensible balance it has managed to achieve despite the best efforts of a confederacy of tuna faced rodeo clowns.

[TheWindCriesMary]

"We should really change the scout car gun accuracy because of the recent changes to Staghounds, t17's and stuarts.

We may want to also consider the changes to the kettenrad where the Comet was left out."

-Smokaz TM

[PonySlaystation]

If it were designed to be a medium tank it'd follow the same frame as every other medium tank in range and accuracy.

It doesn't follow the same frame? The Panther is a better armored version of the PzIV. The Tank Destroyers however can't hit infantry at all, the Marder and the M10 have never been able to hit infantry reliably like the Panther can.

A nerf to it's effectiveness against Infantry is a bad idea and this is more visible now that people can't afford doctrine buffs, because it was the doctrine buffs that made it too powerful, the unit itself was fine.

+20% accuracy, +33% tower rotation, +10 sight, +15% damage, +15% penetration + double repairs, + blitzkrieg, + smoke canisters, yes that can make the Panther a bit over the top effective, especially when you're considering how easy it is to maintain veterancy when you have both Blitzkrieg and Smoke Canisters on one of the heaviest and fastest tanks in the game, so then you have to take in to account the strong veterancy buffs that the Panther gets.

If a unit is slightly too powerful then increasing the cost is one thing but decreasing combat efficiency and in this case complete removing the Panthers ability to kill infantry will have severe affects, since the unit will no longer become a viable option if it can only battle with tanks. Such a change isn't even necessary, it's not a tank destroyer.

So if the unit is overpowered in Blitzkrieg doc but balanced in Terror or Defensive, then shouldn't the focus be on the doctrine instead of the unit itself?

[Spartan_Marine88]

And why in the name of reason, logic or the universe would it be "odd" that the panther was left out of accuracy changes to a COMPLETELY different unit that has COMPLETELY different characteristics and which performs a VERY different role?

Some people actually believe that the Panther and the M10 have the same role, because of decisions that Vcoh made because of the tier role that the panther was to fill which was a late game counter to the M4.

Because Tier's are thrown out the window, so should a large majority of decisions that had been made because of them (indeed large amounts of them already have) But certain people seem un-able to let go of the fact that this is no longer Vcoh, except for the engine and the skins, there is a vast gulf of difference and the old vcoh role for the panther no longer suited it.

[TheWindCriesMary]

The Panther is meant to offer Axis players with a better armoured, faster and more effective field-presence tank than the P4 that also has heavy crush and more AT power. This comes at a cost of it being decidedly more expensive/more pop/pool intensive and noticably inferior at AI to the P4 (but still capable).

How some tyrannical clubfooted troglodytes have gotten it into their delusional skulls that this somehow makes it even remotely similar to the Firefly, the m10 or the m18 is beyond belief.

[8thRifleRegiment]

The Panther is meant to offer Axis players with a better armoured, faster and more effective field-presence tank than the P4 that also has heavy crush and more AT power. This comes at a cost of it being decidedly more expensive/more pop/pool intensive and noticably inferior at AI to the P4 (but still capable).

How some tyrannical clubfooted troglodytes have gotten it into their delusional skulls that this somehow makes it even remotely similar to the Firefly, the m10 or the m18 is beyond belief.

Yep. Yep, Yep.Yep. Yep.

[Jodomar]

I totally agree with wind here and I am against nerfing the panther as I do not see it strictly as a tank destroyer like the m10 and hellcat are. Recently I've been banging my head against the wall with the amount of non-issues that are popping up everywhere making game play even more dull. Thank god that the war map is keeping things interesting.