Grenadiers and the LMG

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[Smokaz]

My premise: unupgraded grenadierspam is a tiny bit too strong. They put out a lot of long range dps, and even adding simple stuff like a medikit or a grenade can end up with a squad getting 7-8 kills. Getting 7 to 8 volk kills on a regular rifle without a upgrade and not using a triage is something that is a lot harder to do.

Unupgraded grenadierspam is strong because the allies always rely on infantry manned at guns, these are great targets for suicidal gren spam overruns while when allies attempt the same they at best force panthers and marders back keeping a elastic line of AT intact. We all know how pointless it is to run upgraded rifles if the enemy if axis suspects its pointless, they will use tactics that completely destroy riflemen or tommies that are just relying on cover or a LT to try to put up a fight or decrew important support weapons.

It's really dubious if fuel based long range AT will ever be added for the allies. So I doubt they will ever be able to do the same safe fallbacks as axis can. I know these units existed in WW2, but I don't think there are models for them or they have ever been planned to be modeled ever.

I would like to also add that its a clear advantage to be able to have the strongest and cheapest units for pop. Base grens > base rifles for pop by a serious amount already.

Grenadierspam or stormspam in the case of blitz also get a lot of the PERKS from their doctrine choices, without buying upgrades or by just buying cheap upgrades. Go look at british or american "infantry" type of doctrine buffs and notice how many are tied to getting upgrades. Very many compared to blitz, defensive or luftwaffe. These can do awesome without buying many upgrades, it's not a rare thing for a defensive buffed gren with only a medikit to cut down 10 riflemen before retreating.

The LMG's in the game (which in total begs its own thread) are however very weak at denying territory.
The damage a double LMG gren squad will put out before a charging grenade squad or a simply stronger assault squad isn't enough to not force a fallback to a better position or get grenaded or lose too much health.

The whole point of LMGs in "real life" is to punish charges. They sacrifice accuracy for firepower. But in EIRR lmgs outside of denying volks for brits or unupgraded charges for wehr are very weak. LMG's aren't popular or doing good in EIRR because they dont give enough denying power. And moving around and charging after enemies is a really important part of the grenadier role, which the lmg reduces the ability of the gren to do.

I think grenadier heavy companies are really fun, because the sound files and the overall feel of the smaller grenadier squads give you that awesome "elite against the horde" feeling. But, I think it should be less about a flat buff from the doctrine just making them awesome and more tied to their grenade/lmg or other upgrades.

My proposal is to tie more of the buffs in the wehrmacht doctrines that affects the grenadier, to affect the lmg by giving it defensive buffs, more firepower or abilities. And to tone down buffs that make the grenadier without any upgrades stronger.

Overall I think its a problem when you can rely on grenadiers as a push unit just by unlocking free buffs for them when this is not reflected in the allied factions as well, not as doctrine buffs or as base unit capabilities.

[pqumsieh]

Just wait until the next patch, this goes for this thread and your last. Got some nice changes I think you might like.

[Shabtajus]

when?

[nikomas]

Soon^tm

[Smokaz]

bren buff, but no lmg buff

[hans]

well, if u say grens are already strong, and then wanz to give lmg buffs? ehrrm i know that lmgs are rarely used and that i also peronally dont like them coz they are not that flexible. But at the same time i saw lmgs rape shit and that it is already a powerful AI weapon. It just forces the gren to play a defensive role. Too defensive though for my taste...

Whatever, buffing the lmg is not right i think but also the overall change of the gren role with lmg makes the lmg sometimes not selectable.

[lionel23]

Yeah it's a great defensive weapon, which I find odd terror gets that and defensive gets.. double shreks.. which no one uses.

Anyway, I run like 20 LMGs in my company, fantastic weapon.  It's on a tough platform and the gun is really powerful (stupid silly to get 2 on a single squad when it's better to do just 1 and it doesn't lose its effectiveness even after 3 losses).  Great for 1 man defense squads too, backed up in a trench and healing...

LMGs don't need buffs.  If anything, MP44s need a price adjustment.  Costing way, way more than an LMG and not being nearly as effective for an assault weapon.  I mean MP44s are GOOD just not 95+ for 2 good when you can get LMGs for 70 and MP40s and Greaseguns for 60-65ish.

[jackmccrack]

All Wehr companies have access to double LMGs.

2x Mp44 is way better than an LMG as an assault weapon.

Because when you assault a position, you move towards it.

[lionel23]

But I'm talking about price. 2 MP44s are indeed scary weapons, but worth 95 munitions?

[jackmccrack]

Umm, yeah.

Because the platform it comes on has stealth.

[lionel23]

Not grens or KCH, and those are very much overpriced.

[NightRain]

MP44.

Accessiable by:

Stormtroopers T1 Selection Blitzkrieg
KCH Standard
Support weapons T4 Selection Terror

Those are all that gets MP44s. I did not count in Scoped Mp44s as they are bars.

[jackmccrack]

Lionel specifically mentions the Mp44s that cost 95 munitions.

[skaffa]

LMGs look pretty good to me tbh. They rape rangers and everything else up close. They rape from buildings too.

[Mysthalin]

Lionel. I want you to think very long and hard before you answer my question.

You honestly think that KCH are overpriced in their current state?

(P.S. I'm sure Scoped MP44s are just 70 munitions... Somewhat underpriced for the best infantry weapon in the game if you ask me tbfh)

[lionel23]

Actually, I do find KCH (the 3-man variant) variant super-priced in overall costs.

3men with MP44s, 290 MP, 110 MU, 5 Pop, 8 Infantry Pool.

Compare that to Rangers, which at 5 SMGs will easily stomp a 3 or 4 man KCH squad
6 men with 4 SMGS (6 with doctrine), 310 MP, 140 MU (for the 6 as 2 are free), 6 pop, 8 Infantry Pool

KCH are also inflexible since you cannot elect to NOT take MP44s.  I'd kill for Gren rifle equipped KCH as I find the 110 MU prohibitively expensive for an underperforming assault squad.  3 guys just isn't enough to lead an assault as the squad loses effectiveness quicker than any other assault squad.

Also, Airborne get access to the LMG, which is pretty dang powerful for them as a defensive weapon.

[NightRain]

Lionel. I want you to think very long and hard before you answer my question.

You honestly think that KCH are overpriced in their current state?

(P.S. I'm sure Scoped MP44s are just 70 munitions... Somewhat underpriced for the best infantry weapon in the game if you ask me tbfh)

The Powerful KCH you are thinking come from the Terror. With 4 men and all but I haven't seen other doctrines using them....

In a second thought. KCH spam with Battlehardened with medkits o CD and Assault on CD sounds rather sexy. But it easily outrationed.

[hans]

3men with MP44s, 290 MP, 110 MU, 5 Pop, 8 Infantry Pool.

why not make mp44s an upgrade for kch. So normal ones are getting rifles for 290 Mp 5 pop 8 infantry pool and mp44 upgrad for 95 mun?

[lionel23]

That I would love Hans, and I've asked and that could be coded in as KCH aren't 'stuck/glued' to MP44 on the models.  Or heck an option for LMG or Shrek and/or basic rifle I'd kill for them, I'd use KCH more often if that were possible.  Just it seems silly that their assaults squads are fewer mens and for long range roles I support the use of weak armored/low HP/low men squads and for assault tougher, more mens (Grens with MP44s I find far excel over the 3man KCH, just in terms of cost effectiveness alone).

[Mysthalin]

Except those 3 men that you speak of have the highest survivability of any infantry in the game, and are near impossible to suppress. They are in fact, a very excellent assault squad even without doctrinal buffs.

Furthermore.. you're comparing a T3 (a T3 I consider OP, personally) buffed infantry that is more expensive to the KCH? That's akin to saying that the base greyhound is crap because a Heat Rounds Panzer 4 whoops it's fucking ass. Even comparing the base units without doctrinal buffs I would EXPECT the rangers to win on average because they flat out cost more. With the "quintessential" cost for the 6x SMGs being in the 180 mu range (meaning what I expect people to pay for 6x SMGs, if not given the option of the top T3).

The inflexibility of KCH is irrelevant. What we're discussing is the MP44.

Grenadier MP44s are super-charged BARs on an extremely durable platform for cheaper than the BAR, fighting units that are considerably less durable. Comparing them to anything in terms of cost-effectiveness is just flat out stupid, because the scoped MP44s are going to win on cost-effectiveness against well.. pretty much everything.