On Fixing PE, with a shoutout to OMG/VCOH 2.301

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[panzerman]

most allied companies have 4 to 6 atg's plus shermans, m18's, fireflies etc

[nikomas]

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Less tanks = less AT = Bigger advantage for any doctrine buffing infantry, be best and only reliable counter to buffed elite infantry are tanks, less tanks = more free roam for said elite infantry. It's not an easy problem, or are you suggesting yet another complete doctrine and unit redesign? If we have less and more expensive armour, they need to be balanced in accord to the rest of the units and doctrines.

Less elite AND tanks? I will probably NEVER play anything but blitz/terror/Inf seriously again, you know why? These doctrines buff "Standard" infantry way more than other doctrines, with inf gaining extra weapons and surviveability buffs for basic rifles. Terror much the same and blitz giving Grens elite armor, tommies could do okay depending on if the new doctrines are what was said some months ago but PE while having some inf buffs spread out their basic is shit in comparison.

PE will still get the raw stick, because you don't need a "Lot" of AT to negate PE HT's, you simply need a pair of bazookas/recoiless (All doctrines have these now) or a boys or two on the field and he cant really touch you, it is not a heavy muni investment in that regard. If there is a solution to helping PE i is hardly based on the amount of fuel. The "Simple" solution of less armour seems pretty ignorant to me because I don't see it working without major redesigns. No offence to anyone, just my opinion.

[Jodomar]

There is way to much handheld and AT in general. I think the issue is more on the Handheld side. I think only airborne and rangers should get the option to take AT assets other then stickies on rifles. Then for the brits get rid of the AT riles. If you are going to lessen Armour then you'll have to make current armor more effective.

[tank130]

The only reason people put a shit load of AT (handheld or not) in their company is because they need it. There are so many vehicles that you MUST HAVE a lot of AT on the field at all times.

We have become so dependent on vehicles, that the counter is screwing over an entire faction...... That's a big problem IMO.

In regards to Elite Infantry; That's pretty easy to fix. Adjust pool/pop/MP to reduce the number of the units. Keep them powerful, but limited to being a specialty force, not a mainline force.

Just like vehicles. Keep them powerful, but limited so they are not just throw away units.

That would keep both elite infantry and vehicles more in line with a persistence mod. Take care of that shit, it valuable type attitude...


Doctrine buffs can stay the same.

[Jodomar]

I would be inclined to agree with tank.  Elite units/tanks should instill fear into you when they appear on the battlefield. I'm all for limiting tanks and elite units if they are very effective at what they do to the point of instilling fear when others face them.

[nikomas]

The only reason people put a shit load of AT (handheld or not) in their company is because they need it. There are so many vehicles that you MUST HAVE a lot of AT on the field at all times.

We have become so dependent on vehicles, that the counter is screwing over an entire faction...... That's a big problem IMO.

In regards to Elite Infantry; That's pretty easy to fix. Adjust pool/pop/MP to reduce the number of the units. Keep them powerful, but limited to being a specialty force, not a mainline force.

Just like vehicles. Keep them powerful, but limited so they are not just throw away units.

That would keep both elite infantry and vehicles more in line with a persistence mod. Take care of that shit, it valuable type attitude...


Doctrine buffs can stay the same.

Tank...

Less elite AND tanks? I will probably NEVER play anything but blitz/terror/Inf seriously again, you know why? These doctrines buff "Standard" infantry way more than other doctrines, with inf gaining extra weapons and surviveability buffs for basic rifles. Terror much the same and blitz giving Grens elite armor, tommies could do okay depending on if the new doctrines are what was said some months ago but PE while having some inf buffs spread out their basic is shit in comparison.

You did not answer this and so far has nobody else, if it's going to be bought I want some sounder reasoning behind it than what I've seen so far. Anything that decreases the amount and usefulness of Elite/Armour buffed by certain doctrines proportionally affects the doctrines worth and thus, logic follows that the doctrine itself becomes worth less on average.

Back to an earlier example of Armour Vs. Inf, decrease the available amount of armour by 25% and you decrease the amount of units buffed by it's doctrines by 25% and consequently making the doctrine as a whole less effective than the infantry doctrine. While you might argue that "Elite" rangers get hit by an equal 25%, this does not matter as you can transition into 100% buffed riflemen. Results? The Rifle doctrine now has an even larger advantage than it did before and anyone can tell you that triple bar riflemen can almost be scarier than rangers as it already is.

It is one example, but in this regard the infantry doctrine will be much better off, hell, remember my post about not being able to use the last 350 of my fuel? A fuel cut would do nothing at all but help that doctrine in the broader scope of things. While it might be a direction to go in I think the idea of it being done without affecting doctrine balance a bit naive.


Now tank, I'm not necessarily saying you're fully wrong in that line of thinking. After all, we cant be sure until we try but the way I see it you and the supporters of that idea are driving the idea train way to fast trough a minefield right now.

[Tymathee]

"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"

Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.

epic, sigged.

[Tymathee]

i would love that tank, make vehicles, especially tanks more special along with unlocked infantry, i want to be able to see a tank and go "oh sh!t" not "wheres my AT"

I also think if you do this, infantry disables/limited weapons need to be more limited, or cost more, i can easily see faust spam companies. Need some type of supply me thinks.

[tank130]

nikomas,

I guess my concern is the direction we are going and have gone for a while. We just keep buffing stuff to counter the buffs of the counter....so on and so on.

Vehicles are the counter to elite infantry (all infantry). So the EI (elite Infantry) get taken down by vehicles, so we buff the EI to be better at countering vehicles. Now we need more vehicles, so you get more AT and/or add AT to the EI.

Then PE gets fucked and we say lets buff PE!!!.......lol

I really want this thread to stay away from theory crafting, so I have just done a basic explanation.

I am not suggesting massive changes that make Elite Inf the same as rifles.....

[nikomas]

nikomas,

I guess my concern is the direction we are going and have gone for a while. We just keep buffing stuff to counter the buffs of the counter....so on and so on.

Vehicles are the counter to elite infantry (all infantry). So the EI (elite Infantry) get taken down by vehicles, so we buff the EI to be better at countering vehicles. Now we need more vehicles, so you get more AT and/or add AT to the EI.

Then PE gets fucked and we say lets buff PE!!!.......lol

I really want this thread to stay away from theory crafting, so I have just done a basic explanation.

I am not suggesting massive changes that make Elite Inf the same as rifles.....

No tank, uh... I don't suppose you can get on vent a bit so I can explain better what I mean sometime today? I see your point for sure but there are some inherent issues to it.

[tank130]

Don't want you to think I am avoiding you, I would just like to see this publicly discussed to keep the ideas flowing.

I may be on the wrong track, it is just how I feel as I see the changes over the last few years.

IMO, limiting vehicles and Elite Infantry will not break the mod. I envision EI being very strong, but very limited. A blob of four ranger squads running around is gimmicky game play IMO. So is endless tanks and LV's.

[nikomas]

It's not that you're on the wrong train tank, it's just that you've been missing the giant cart marked TnT on the track ahead 
(In regards to saying it would not need to affect doctrines or that "buffs could stay the same". That's what I wanted to explain)

[puddin]

you limit vehicles by adding manpower, And Limit rangers by pricing. 

Either ypou can have a balence company that is bigger, or have a smaller more focused company build. 

Think of this. Add manpwer costs to elite units more than fuel and munitions, and suddenly peopel can not field massive armies. 

Maybe add manpower and peopel can have alot of basic infantry availible if their is limited elite inf in their company. 

So many things can be changed and tweeked without hard caps with still allowing people to make any kind of company they want. 

The Streght to EIR is the ability to customize to yourself.  Start the game with a tiger or KT or 2 tanks if you like.... 

[tank130]

(In regards to saying it would not need to affect doctrines or that "buffs could stay the same". That's what I wanted to explain)

Well let me rephrase that then.

It would not require a total rework of doctrines. It would require small changes to those specific buffs. Something that is also not in play here is the new doctrines. Sorry, I know what they are and you don't, so that kinda makes it unfair for you to analyze.

There are not massive changes to the new doctrines, but they are more rounded and not so specific to specific units. What I mean is, you can build a ranger company with out having to spam rangers to make the doctrine a worth while choice. The other units receive some love to.

In the not so distant future we are going to have more then one RGD coder capable of coding Doctrines. That means making these kinds of changes won't take a fucking year.....lol

[nikomas]

There are not massive changes to the new doctrines, but they are more rounded and not so specific to specific units. What I mean is, you can build a ranger company with out having to spam rangers to make the doctrine a worth while choice. The other units receive some love to.

But that's the thing, the buffs in the infantry company are already non specific in regards to riflemen and rangers aside from one specific case... Ugh, vent would make this conversation much easier

While I don't know the exact specifics of most of them I did already know as you said that most of it is not massively changed, that's not news by any means if you've heard some things here and there. But in the case of infantry company as it currently stands there is nothing "Forcing" spamming rangers to make them viable, rifles get beefed up just as much. Hell, in what I think is the most "Effective" build for Thompson rangers the riflemen get the exact same buffs the rangers do, and I have a nagging suspicion spamming greasegun/bar rifles might be just as effective as the rangers if played right, it's certainly cheaper.

Still, that's not really the point I was trying to make. I think you're misunderstanding me again but I might just be pretty bad at making my point, hence why I thought vent might make it easier.

[Tymathee]

less fuel, more mp, = more infantry, less tanks?

[tank130]

less fuel, more mp, = more infantry, less tanks?

But that would screw PE.....

unless we change fuel costs for PE vehicles I guess.

[nikomas]

But here is where it relates to doctrines, you see...

More fuel > Makes armoured doctrines stronger by virtue of them having stronger tanks at same costs
Less Fuel > As armoured doctrines get weaker, inf ones get consequently stronger due to stronger inf at same costs
Less Elite Infantry > Doctrines buffing basic infantry get an advantage, due to basic inf being allowed the same quantities as before with less counters around

Result? Infantry companies get a larger amount of buffs per unit than armoured and elite ones, and this is how doctrine balance gets swung. Hence why I believe some extreme care has to be taken doing this.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

The real issue with PE isint the massive amount of Anti tank that is on field, its the infantry.

Remember the old change where they could fight bars and when the suppression wasnt complete shit?
Then G43s were usefull to stop an attacking force by slowing it with the slow ability but now, for what is nothing more than a over priced weapon upgrade you can get Either the a lot more usefull Mg42 with either Luft or SE.
The main downside was that Everything with PGrens was nerfed, no exeptions.

First they decided that instead of having the reasonable Soldier armor and the health (not actually sure how much health they had but i think 55-65) to change them to Wehr grens with no form of healing what so ever unless you are SE or the Top T3 luft waffe (and admit if if you are luft you really dont use PGrens anyway)
Then they increased the price of EVERYTHING that they had to offer.
They removed the Support grens and added them as Reward units instead.
The G43 lost its Slow ability and got a Completely useless bar suppression ability that wont even work half the time because you can just move away before it actually supressess anything.
PS: saying that it was OP because it was used to Vethunt is bullshit, Atleast it was usefull for something else than to tickle your enemys.


Anyways, its the initial change of the Pgrens that fucked everything up and the price increase that did too, admittedly The allies do most of the time have excessive amount of AT on field at every single time but the problem lies that there really aint an effective way for PE to deal with them using infantry (unless luft with falls luftwaffe or  SE with Flamers) so they have to use Light vehicles because a direct assault on anything with Pgrens is a suicide mission.


in short, it was This initial change that fucked alot up, instaed of having ample amount of assult grens and G43 slow they can be countered with nothing more than 2 bar squads.

[Tymathee]

But that would screw PE.....

unless we change fuel costs for PE vehicles I guess.

Yeah. make their mp costs higher.