Juno Beach

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[tank130]

Please post your comments for this map.

I want to review each of these maps to see why they are not getting played. I would like people who ACTUALLY PLAYED THE MAP to give their input on what they liked and disliked about the map. What could be done to improve the map.

The the owner of the map will have to the option to make the suggested changes or allow someone else to make the changes for them. If the changes are just too overwhelming and not worth the efforts, we will just remove the map.

Show Some respect:

People put a lot of work into these maps. Comments like "it sucks" will not be tolerated. Post useful, helpful comments or just don't post.
We need input from people who actually want to help and better the playing environment.

If you can't play nice, just don't post please.

If you need a screen shot of the map to show notes etc, let me know and I will unpack it and post the shot.

[tank130]

 - I found this map to be way too large.
 - Spawning from the beach felt very awkward and pathing into the city seemed clumsy and took forever.
 - The spawns turned it into a 1v1 and a 3v3 OR 2-1v1s and a 2v2

Suggestions.

Stamp the map and reduce it's size. Rotate the map so you are playing the long way, making the beach a flank. That theme is the same as D-Day, but the map is so dramatically different it should not matter.

The detail in this map is AWESOME. Some great creativity and hard work was done. Be proud of the work you have done. Make some changes to make it a better playing environment and you will have winner!!
 
All I got for now.

[aeroblade56]

To many choke points in this map With some mines you can easily cut of a side by yourself. with the narrow roads this also adds problems such as pathing issues and bigger tank hitting the houses and get caught on them. To many shot blockers as well and not enough open area to flank.

[GORKHALI]

i shall look the map through and try one more time to make it work for eir ,and spawns side ways and if players campp on the other side neither team would win coz of the sectors equally dovided on both sides so both teams need to cross the middle what so ever

about the size it is same size as neuville lol 512X352

[tank130]

My mistake about the size then. Obviously I was deceived by that.

Not to split hairs, but Neuville is actually 512 x 352.....

If the sectors need to be amended to make the map more playable, I would suggest doing so. It takes about 10 minutes to redo sectors.

Maybe adding more bridges would help with crossing as well?

[GORKHALI]

here is a remade version side ways and exta crossings added ,sectors r equally divided on both sides,...

4v4 changed to 3v3

[tank130]

I know you can't completely judge a map by one screen shot, so I opened the map in world builder to have a looky.

These are my concerns:

All maps are subjected to attack/defend modes. It appears that in an allies attack mode, the axis would simply set up some MG's and paks along the water line and trap the allies at there spawn.

The center spawn has an area to mass their troops and try to break the line. The left and right spawns are completely screwed and have no cover.

In ME or R+ modes the map may be OK. Both sides would be able to get into the city on equal ground.

I may be misjudging that - what are your thoughts on that Gork?

[brn4meplz]

I don't know if I said this in the original map topic but damn Gork, good job on the visuals. Having been to Courseulles-sur-Mer, looking at the screen shot nearly took me back there.

[tank130]

....

You know Brn, you are so bang on with that comment.

That is one of the things that is so hard to deal with when it comes to Gork's maps. Even with my limited knowledge of map making (2 maps) I can recognize the massive amount of work that went into creating this map.

The attention to detail, the effort involved. I can't imagine the time it took to reference a map with each individual object, rotate it and paste it, then double check it is in the right spot according to the real world map or image. It just boggles my mind the amount of effort to create this map....

Now that I have made some maps, I find it even more difficult to tell Gork the map is not working for whatever the reason listed. I know that any change he makes contradict his design and result in a shit ton of work.
I also know it must pain him to be asked to change it.

I guess the problem is, this is a game. If playing the game on this map is not fun, then no one will play the game on this map. Playing on this map just because it is very accurate is not going to be motivational enough for people who are essentially just playing a video game.

I guess for you Gork, you have to realize people want you to change your map because it is a video game. It is not because they do not appreciate the massive effort you took, but because playing a video game is more important to them.

It is the same reason we balance units based on game play, not realism.

[GORKHALI]

well i can't put headgrows on the beachlines on the ally sides so maybe i shall use oilbarrels as shotblockes coz u can't shoot through them even they r destroyed kinda unrealistic ,and if u can point out the major problems for me in the map i am willing to make changes to make this map work ,it would be a shame to throw away after so much effort,...

anyway this map took me like 3 months i worked like 3 hours everyday ...so i don't want it just end up in the garbage can ..at first there were only 3 crossings now we have like 6 crossings.

this is how it looked like before ...1 bailey bridge in the middle and 2 land crossings but now those bailey bridge r turned into land crossings coz in eir u cannot repair bridges..but this is how it was in real but this is a game LOL ...

[tank130]

well i can't put headgrows on the beachlines on the ally sides so maybe i shall use oilbarrels as shotblockes coz u can't shoot through them even they r destroyed kinda unrealistic ,and if u can point out the major problems for me in the map i am willing to make changes to make this map work ,it would be a shame to throw away after so much effort,...

anyway this map took me like 3 months i worked like 3 hours everyday ...so i don't want it just end up in the garbage can ..at first there were only 3 crossings now we have like 6 crossings.

Awesome attitude Gork!!!  I am glad to hear you are willing to work on it to make it go. I will try to do a little mark up later today if I get time.

I am by no means the best person to give advice on game play changes. Hopefully someone else can also share some opinions and ideas.

[deadbolt]

you could add buildingblockers so tank traps/wire/sandbags etc cant be made on the land bridges and cause a stalemate, the only problem is mines cant be placed there either, but its worth doing to avoid stalemates and make for smoother gameplay which will make people actually want to play the map and not go, fuqdisbridgemapgooby

[Ahnungsloser]

I played that map several times (max. 3 times) and the spawn point on the top left side in the middle of the water was horrible for my tanks.
The pathing of vehicles in the town is awful but when everything got crushed it went a bit better.

Additionally the map tempts to split into smaller independent battles. When a team which started in the center got pushed back to their spawn they
have serious problems to fight back because you can install a good defemse nearby because there are so many buildings.

[tank130]

Gork, could you post a screen shot with the sectors painted on and showing the new spawn points please.

I realize you just amended this map and no one really knows that yet.
 I think it would be better if we discussed this a little more before releasing the amendment.

A lot of people have negative comments prior to the changes you have made, lets make sure we do not give them a chance to add more by releasing the changes too soon.

[hans]

i only remember that bridges are bad for a map. From that picture i see u have not the flanking option u need, right?

on the other hand, its more prefered to go over the bridges in the middle instead of moving through water on the right and left flank.

I dont know what others feel but water in the middle with a few ways over it are not good to play on coz u can block those areas easy with mgs and other support weapons. Iam sry that i havent played it yet. Gonna do it if i ll be back at home.

what was ur idea with those bridges gork?

[GORKHALI]

I am off to work,i got night shift so will post the sectors view when i get back

And hans i also know bridges r bad for eir gameplay but,i made this map based  on a rel map from d day so its kinda difficult for me as well. But i am trying my beat to make players omfortble with more crossings and flanking options.

Spawns r sideways now, and each sides have 13 sectors in total in each sides.

[tank130]

I don't think the number of sectors is as important as where those sectors are and how they effect the game play.

For example: On DDay, the entrance to the beach is in the second sector. If it was in the 3rd sector, you would have to back track to get access and secure the sector on the beach.

If your sectors are divided by bridges, it could cause the same negative effect. I have no idea if that is the case, that is why we need the screen shot.

Unfortunately, the two worst things to put on a map are water and bridges. The only thing worse then those two things is putting them in the middle of game play. You are going to have to work twice as hard as anyone else designing your map to make those elements not negatively impact the game.

[hans]

Instead of putting more bridges you could have kept your realism by making it low tide and the water passable terrain. Then you could make the walls by the water bombed out so units can walk up/down them. People can then decide if they want to stick to land (which is mostly on the flanks, which is good), or crawl through the water and hope that they are not caught out (could have debris in parts of the water - boats stuck on the ground from low tide, random floating boxes, concrete from destroyed walls - so that people won't be annoyed at how they keep getting trapped there.

THIS! is a good idea ^^

[tank130]

You know Gork..... she just might be on to something there....

It may be just the right compromise between the realism and the game play

[tank130]

Uh - oh........

I just opened this map in World builder and I see some issues I believe will be a big problem with game play. Just turning this map and turning the spawns is not going to work and here is why:

- All 3 spawns in the north have roads running straight to the center of the map.
- Spawns in the south are really in trouble. The South East spawn has no road to the city. That person has two options:
      a) move left all the way over to the center spawn and use his road to the city center
      b) Cross the field in front of his spawn, cross the large body of water, cross some more field, then use the road going around the harbor, then to the city center
The center spawn is good to go
The South West spawn is is pretty good. His road is a little windy, but probably not game breaking

This part concerns me a lot. This image is a example of a typical clustering in your map. The entire city is built like these little sections. I have the overlay set at Light crush. That means anything with only light crush will have to go around the red objects.



This would not be a bad thing if it was just one little piece of the map, but about 90% of the maps is this way......
This pathing is just not going to work....at all


To be honest Gork, I am not sure what to suggest with this map. It such an awesome looking map..............