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Author Topic: Map Review - or NOT  (Read 5620 times)
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tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« on: January 22, 2013, 06:41:58 pm »

I recently made changes to D-Day, and wanted to play it to view the results.

The Teams:

The Allies
Wind (Avre & Croc)
Bolt (Avre & Croc)
andy (Armor)

VS

The Axis
Ray (Tank Hunters)
Tank (Blitz)
Stagnot (or something like that) (Tank Hunters)

Reason for this post: I am more then open to feed back about maps: as long as some thought has gone into the comment......
Loosing a game because of a shitty company build and shitty game play, then blaming the map for it is probably going to get you some negative comments from me.

Let's take a look at a couple of highlights from the game shall we.



Exhibit One:

Apparently Tank130 is a Architectural genius. His has mastered the art of constructing a building, inside of a building.



I have no idea how the fuck I did that, but according to Bolt, the entire map sucks because of it.......

Then we get these remarks at the end of the game from the master of disaster - Bolt



Really Bolt? Are you sure about that? Perhaps you need a little sprinkle of L2P. This looks a lot like a big tank going through the trenches.



Oh.... My bad. You actually meant through the trenches, not around them. Ya, sorry, didn't really design it for that option. However, your teammate andy found an interesting path........




Sorry Bolt, not gonna get your AVRE in there. I guess that's why the entire right side of the map sucks.


And of course, right after the allies get beat, the negative remarks start rolling in about the right side and being unable to flank.





Perhaps sending a little more then that helpless little rifle squad on the right flank would have been a better choice. Perhaps fail companies of AVRE and CROC spam, blobbed together in the middle of the city was not your best choice.

I believe it was Wind who claimed the map is a bottle neck. Perhaps blobbing all your armor on a road against 2 shrek squads, a Pak, and a Jagd was the bottle neck issue you were referring to?
The entire right side of the map is wide open, including the trenches and the right side of the city, but the allies choose to blob everything on one road and blame the map.

I would really like to use peoples input to make the map better, but I have concerns about the qualifications of these people giving the advise.......lol

I would include the replay, but it's just 45 mins of allies getting stomped and then blaming the map.
Logged

Quote
Geez, while Wind was banned I forgot that he is, in fact, totally insufferable
I'm not going to lie Tig, 9/10 times you open your mouth, I'm overwhelmed with the urge to put my foot in it.
skaffa Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 3130


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 06:51:57 pm »

Reminds me of a certain 'Neuville is bad' topic.
Logged

Quote from: deadbolt
bad luck skaffa>  creates best and most played eir maps
                      >  hated for creating best and most played eir maps

Quote from: Tachibana
47k new all time record?

Quote from: deadbolt
Don't knock it til uve tried it bitchface, this isn't anything like salads version. Besides u said a semois conversion would never work, now look that's the most played map, ohgodwhy.jpg r u map lead
tank130 Offline
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 06:54:19 pm »

Reminds me of a certain 'Neuville is bad' topic.

Nueville is not bad. Nueville is great, really great.

What is bad is people taking credit for a 99% stamp and letting people believe you invented it.
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skaffa Offline
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Posts: 3130


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 06:59:33 pm »

What is bad is you making a special topic about your personal opinion. Claiming you are right and the rest of us are all idiots. You decided to flame me and I completely pwnd you in that topic. Dont be so mad about it.
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TheWindCriesMary Offline
The Ethics Police
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2630


« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2013, 07:03:34 pm »

Tank your time as head of maps for EiR was characterized in my opinion as a very good one for EiR.

You greatly encouraged new mapmakers to take up the craft, greatly increased the transparency of how maps were added and removed from the launcher (something that was a severe problem in previous years), provided a great channel for players to submit feedback etc. and even produced two maps of your own. In those respects you were a credit to the mod and a great improver of the state of its maps.


But the reaction you've had to the criticism against this map has not been among those highlights. In fact it has been sad and, to be perfectly honest, completely absurd. I'm not even just talking about the completely unneccessary campaign you launched against Skaffa just because his map (the adaptation of Semois) is hailed by so many to be fantastic. As the first guy who would normally criticize you, i've been pretty supportive of your work on the maps of EiR.

But when it comes to your maps, you have a really, really, really hard time taking criticism. Granted some of it has been unfair and unwarranted,  I've witnessed a few people unfairly over-criticizing your maps. Some of that happened in this game on Bolt's part and has happened in the past from others.

But there have been other times when you have flown off the handle in a blind rage at those who have tried to offer legitimate feedback (Skaffa for one, as much as you flamed him for not having played your map everything he said held up to my experiences playing the map and I had played it more perhaps than 99% of the mod at that time).

And in this thread there is a huge problem again. What is it? You have scarecrowed the legitimate feedback into the realm of the absurd by trying to reduce the motives behind it to petty spite and trite attacks. You ask for feedback, indeed even beg for it at times, and then 95% of the time end up flaming the people who give it to you.

Either learn to take people's feedback (good or bad) or for the love of god stop asking for it.

Some of the feedback will be good. Some of it will be bad. Both types will sometimes say that you did something incorrectly. But flying off the handle and attacking the giver of that feedback is just plain stupid. It's also going to make the people who try to legitimately give feedback, and who want your maps to succeed, think twice about trying to help.

Hell I know I have no interest in ever, ever giving you any feedback about any of your maps. Instead of hoping to give tips on how I think they might be better and get played more, I just won't play them anymore. Why? Because it's too fucking stressful to have someone lose their shit on you when you're earnestly giving them your thoughts on the map they asked you to test.

So I will take these one by one. First though, let's see the results of the game in question:



Quote
Loosing a game because of a shitty company build and shitty game play, then blaming the map for it is probably going to get you some negative comments from me.

Quote
Perhaps fail companies of AVRE and CROC spam, blobbed together in the middle of the city was not your best choice.

Quote
I would include the replay, but it's just 45 mins of allies getting stomped and then blaming the map.

All of these statements are misguided and inaccurate. We can see that of all the players in the game, the player who was stomped hardest and who played the worst was yourself. Not bolt. Not me. And not even Andy.

In fact, I played well in this game. And given the teams (me and bolt plus Andy who is by no means good at this game) the game actually turned out to be very even.  A convincing win for the Axis, but by no means a blowout.


So the first thing we need to stop doing is to try and paint this as a "stomp". It was not. It probably should have been given the teams, but it was not. Allies played very well considering the teams and two of the allies even outplayed their axis counterparts.


Now, I say this all not to agree with bolt

I think while he made statements that were based in some truth, they were absurdly exagerrated to an unfair degree.


But I did not make unfair remarks.


DDAY is not a popular map in EiR. It is not widely played or widely loved. If you made a map according to your personal tasts and this doesn't bother you, that is perfectly cool. I did the same thing with Rouen: I made a map that I liked and that was very different knowing it would not get played a lot. When it did not get played alot, I understood. I understood why people complained about the city. I did not get mad at them, or rage at them, or tell them it was just because they lost on it and they were jealous/butthurt/stupid. I knew going into Rouen that people would not widely accept a very close-knit, urban city designed to feel clausterphobic and "realistic".

But what you have done is made a map that has very obvious contradictions to EiR gameplay (a giant right flank that has 2-3 extremely narrow chokepoints) and then railed against people who have pointed out that this is a problem IF the main purpose of your map (and you have said that it is) is to get people to play it widely. You even based the design of neuville and have chronicled how you followed neuville/tanteville etc. to try and recreate their success.

This is not a problem. But if you lash out at the guys who try to point out why your map is not as succesful as neuville/tanteville, then there is a big problem.





So in conclusion, no. Just no. I did not criticize DDAY because I lost that game or because I did badly. It's quite objectively verifiable that I did not do badly in that game, and that I in fact did far better than you or anyone else in the game.


Also, we know from repeated documented examples that I am a supporter of your maps. I am one of the few people that I know of who has stuck up for Adaire both on these forums and repeatedly in game despite the fact that it is a map many people disparage and refuse to play.

So we can rule the following things out:

1. I have a grudge against your maps (as I ardently defended Adaire even while arguing with you on other things, that's pretty clear)
2. I was mad because my company failed on your map (my company excelled on your map)
3. I was mad because I lost (I have lost many times on Adaire and many other maps and still love them).

And instead start to entertain this possibility:

1. I gave you feedback because I believe based on my experience as an EiR player that DDAY is a nice looking map, but does not have good gameplay or design for EiR gameplay.



The sooner you can distinguish between when people are trying to help you with their honest opinion and people who are just out to hassle you, the sooner you can stop treating those former peope with temper tantrums and colossal blow ups when they say things about your map you don't like.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:11:27 pm by TheWindCriesMary » Logged

Vermillion Hawk: Do you ever make a post that doesnt make you come across as an extreme douchebag?

Just sayin'
tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2013, 07:04:20 pm »

What is bad is you making a special topic about your personal opinion. Claiming you are right and the rest of us are all idiots. You decided to flame me and I completely pwnd you in that topic. Dont be so mad about it.


Hmmmmmm.....

Actually Skaffa, you were not mentioned in my original post...at all. It appears you have a bit of a bee in your bonnet. Was there any particular reason you have chosen to start a flame war with me here?

We can take this to PM if you have personal issue.
Logged
tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2013, 07:08:29 pm »

Epeen screenshot of Winds score


OMG wind..... really? That is one motherfucker wall of text. You don't actually expect anyone to read all of that do you?

Why is it you take every opportunity possible to post a screen shot of your score? Actually, why do you even have a screen shot of that score? You got some serious issues there son.


LOL


Edit:

Just curious why you posted an essay and Epeen shot boasting of your score, when my OP makes absolutely no reference to you sucking or getting stomped. In fact, the only reference I made of you specifically Wind was your remark about calling it a bottle neck, while at the same time blobbing all your units on one road.

Somehow you have twisted that into a need to post an epeen shot......

I think most would agree this thread was a tad we bit more about Bolt then you Wind. But if you need the extra attention, by all means fly at it. This is the general discussion thread after all.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:21:43 pm by tank130 » Logged
TheWindCriesMary Offline
The Ethics Police
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2630


« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 07:15:35 pm »

Dude this is a perfect example of someone earnestly trying to explain their feedback of your map -- something you've repeatedly asked, begged and implored people to do for your maps -- and then you've flown off the handle into irrational rage land. It's beyond the realm of the absurd.

You can definitely flame and attack people who try to give feedback of your maps and try (really poorly) to insult them, but if so please also think about perhaps not asking over and over for people to review & test your maps and/or complaining that people aren't playing your map and giving feedback in the very same breath.


It's so confusing to figure out what you want. Do you want earnest opinions from people or don't you? Do you want people to tell you what they like/don't like about your map or not? Because i've got news for you: if you open that pandora's box not everything that comes out of it is gonna be stuff that you're gonna like. Everyone has got an opinion and not all of them are great. But if you're begging people to give you their opinion and then trying to crucify them like a clumsy praetorian when they do... well then you're a freaking psychopath obsessed with screwing yourself over.

 Because although there are some who have attacked your maps in an exaggerated fashion, some of us haven't and you're behaving like a raving lunatic that's making it crazy for anyone to even bother trying to help you with any kind of tips/opinions/feedback etc.

Just make up your mind man and figure out what it is you want.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:30:16 pm by TheWindCriesMary » Logged
tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 07:27:56 pm »

Quote
Because although there are some who have attacked your maps in an exaggerated fashion, some of us haven't and you're behaving like a raving lunatic as if both groups are one and the same.

Hence my post about people attacking maps in an exaggerated fashion. You are the one that has turned the conversation into one about you......as usual it appears.

Sorry Wind, not every conversation about a game you were in is about you. I know that makes you a little sad inside, but really, it can't always be about you. Sometimes other people do bad things and we talk about them.

Would you feel better if we started another thread where you can posts your score and we can talk about how you got it? I am willing to do that if it helps. I hate to see you all worked up like this.
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I2ay Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 626



« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 07:35:00 pm »

I wasn't aware that score was the only basis for how well someone played...
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TheWindCriesMary Offline
The Ethics Police
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2630


« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 07:35:14 pm »

Dude I think you've really cracked here. Seriously this frothing at the mouth rage act is getting ridiculous.

As someone who has defended Adaire repeatedly against all the backlash you'd think you'd have the presence of mind to say "hey, maybe I shouldn't fly off the handle at this legitimate feedback" but instead you're working yourself into this weirdly obsessive lather as if I'm out to get DDAY and have some ulterior motive just because I say DDAY has some gameplay flaws.

Whatever Tank,  like I said: if you're going to carry on like this then there's no point testing your maps and being stupid enough to offer feedback. Until you make up your mind whether you want people to offer opinions or not it's freaking suicide.


Gl with DDAY. (And I actually mean that, I hope one day it succeeds. Seriously)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:41:02 pm by TheWindCriesMary » Logged
TheWindCriesMary Offline
The Ethics Police
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2630


« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 07:50:35 pm »


Wind, i think Tank is having an off day today, he isn't normally like this, and i don't really think it was feedback that brought him down, but more about the fact that people were being mean for no reason - well, he really didn't like theory crafting without playing, and to an extent theory crafting is not great as it is hard to trust; however, he shouldn't have gone overboard about it and escalated the situation.

Tank, you're misjudging what Wind is saying, he isn't making it about himself, he is trying to show how you are over reacting a bit as you are seeing many people as judging the map unfairly with no good basis. Now, a few probably are, but you should ignore it (you normally do), this situation is being handled completely wrong, and as such is escalating more and more each time.

Thank you for this Alpha. You summed it up perfectly and more succinctly then I ever could have.

-Wind

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tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 07:57:26 pm »

Not sure how I can post this any more clear for some of you, and specifically Wind.

If you take two seconds to put your mirror down, you will see this topic was about Bolt. Yes Bolt, the guy that was very aggressive and insulting about the map,

Again, I am sorry Wind that I did not make this thread about you and your score. I am even more sorry I only mentioned such a small part  about your efforts in the match. I would have mentioned more, but it was really a post about some people being complete assholes when it comes to map feed back.

Had I thought you were one of those assholes, I would have gladly made more reference to your contribution.

So you see Wind, it's not about you. And like I said, not all games that you are in are going to be about you. If Bolt is your half retarded brother, and you feel a real need to look out for him, then perhaps I can understand your concern.

BUT - I still don't see the relevance of posting your score.
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tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2013, 08:14:10 pm »

Tank, you're misjudging what Wind is saying, he isn't making it about himself, .......

Really? That's odd.
How could I have ever thought that?

Insert - Windepeen.jpeg
Quote
In fact, I played well in this game.
Quote
It's quite objectively verifiable that I did not do badly in that game, and that I in fact did far better than you or anyone else in the game.

Perhaps you could clear that up for me Tig. I am frightfully confused.




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Killer344 Offline
The Inquisitor
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Posts: 6904



« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 08:30:52 pm »

omfg Wind, there is no way anyone but you read that.
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If I get shot and it's a gay medic fixing me up, he's not gonna be fondling my balls while he does it. You can't patch a chest wound and suck a cock at the same time.
aeroblade56 Offline
Development
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Posts: 3871



« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 08:41:52 pm »

Tig for mediator
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You are welcome to your opinion.

You are also welcome to be wrong.
TheWindCriesMary Offline
The Ethics Police
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2630


« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 09:32:47 pm »

This has gotten really, really pathetic.

You should take stock of how much of a raving lunatic you become when you wrongly perceive that people who are genuinely trying to provide feedback are somehow trying to attack you and that there are enemies with ulterior motives around every corner. Like the score thing -- you're the only guy who has made this thread about the score. It's become this bizarre obsession -- let it go jesus.

You're even starting to lash out at Alpha who is probably the most reasonable person in this or any other COH mod -- that should be a huge red flag that you're off the deep end and way too enraged to listen to reason or step back from the ledge.

Take a day or two, come back, read my original post (or better yet, just read Alpha's because she accurately calls us both out on our misinterpretations and cuts through the nonsense) and maybe after the flight or fight mechanism and the blind rage has winded down out of your system you'll realize that, while imperfect in many ways, my original post has value to be considered with a cooler head.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:50:38 pm by TheWindCriesMary » Logged
aeroblade56 Offline
Development
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2013, 09:58:21 pm »

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EIRRMod Offline
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Posts: 11009



« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2013, 10:16:55 pm »

Holy... fucking... shit-sticks........

Locking this on-fire thread.

[Moderator Action: Locked for off-topic and flaming]
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